55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 09:54 pm
@ican711nm,
Hey, you two should make an effort to differentiate each from the other.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Aug, 2010 09:47 pm
@plainoldme,
Face it, pom, Truman sent military aid, equipment, supplies, and advisors to Vietnam, which predates Eisenhower. And Truman was a Democrat, just in case you don't know it. He is the same guy that went nuclear and dropped the bombs on Japan.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 02:34 pm
Quote:

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/com.art.htm
HOW MANY DID
COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?*

By R.J. Rummel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that I completed this study in November 1993 while still engaged in collecting democide data. Not all the democide totals I mention here may be complete, therefore. For final figures on communist megamurderers, see my summary Table 1.2 in my Death by Government. For all final estimates, see the summary table in Statistics of Democide


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the passing of communism into history as an ideological alternative to democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs.

Few would deny any longer that communism--Marxism-Leninism and its variants--meant in practice bloody terrorism, deadly purges, lethal gulags and forced labor, fatal deportations, man-made famines, extrajudicial executions and show trials, and genocide. It is also widely known that as a result millions of innocent people have been murdered in cold blood. Yet there has been virtually no concentrated statistical work on what this total might be.

For about eight years I have been sifting through thousands of sources trying to determine the extent of democide (genocide and mass murder) in this century. As a result of that effort** I am able to give some conservative figures on what is an unrivaled communist hecatomb, and to compare this to overall world totals.

First, however, I should clarify the term democide. It means for governments what murder means for an individual under municipal law. It is the premeditated killing of a person in cold blood, or causing the death of a person through reckless and wanton disregard for their life. Thus, a government incarcerating people in a prison under such deadly conditions that they die in a few years is murder by the state--democide--as would parents letting a child die from malnutrition and exposure be murder. So would government forced labor that kills a person within months or a couple of years be murder. So would government created famines that then are ignored or knowingly aggravated by government action be murder of those who starve to death. And obviously, extrajudicial executions, death by torture, government massacres, and all genocidal killing be murder. However, judicial executions for crimes that internationally would be considered capital offenses, such as for murder or treason (as long as it is clear that these are not fabricated for the purpose of executing the accused, as in communist show trials), are not democide. Nor is democide the killing of enemy soldiers in combat or of armed rebels, nor of noncombatants as a result of military action against military targets.

With this understanding of democide, Table 1 lists all communist governments that have committed any form of democide and gives their estimated total domestic and foreign democide and its annual rate (the percent of a government's domestic population murdered per year). It also shows the total for communist guerrillas (including quasi-governments, as of the Mao soviets in China prior to the communist victory in 1949) and the world total for all governments and guerillas (including such quasi-governments as of the White Armies during the Russian civil war in 1917-1922). Figure 1 graphs the communist megamurderers and compares this to the communist and world totals.

Of course, eventhough systematically determined and calculated, all these figures and their graph are only rough approximations. Even were we to have total access to all communist archives we still would not be able to calculate precisely how many the communists murdered. Consider that even in spite of the archival statistics and detailed reports of survivors, the best experts still disagree by over 40 percent on the total number of Jews killed by the Nazis. We cannot expect near this accuracy for the victims of communism. We can, however, get a probable order of magnitude and a relative approximation of these deaths within a most likely range. And that is what the figures in Table 1 are meant to be. Their apparent precision is only due to the total for most communist governments being the summation of dozens of subtotals (as of forced labor deaths each year) and calculations (as in extrapolating scholarly estimates of executions or massacres).

With this understood, the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito's Yugoslavia.

Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December 1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over 8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot's rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

...
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 03:55 pm
@ican711nm,
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
For example, wishing for an international communist government will prove fatal for millions of people.

Quote:

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/com.tab1.gif
TABLE 1
COMMUNIST DEMOCIDE {a}
REGIME.............................YEARS..........DEMOCIDE.......ANNUAL RATE %
Afghanistan........................1978-87............228,000................0.157
Albania...............................1944-87...........100,000................0.118
Angola................................1975-87............125,000................0.302
Bulgaria..............................1944-87...........222,000................0.062
Cambodia (Khmer Rouge).........1975-79........2,035,000................8.161
Cambodia (Samrin).................1979-87...........230,000................0.398
China..................................1949-87......35,236,000................0.120
Cuba...................................1959-87...............73,000..............0.028
Czechosolovakia................1948-68...............65,000..............0.024
Ethiopia.............................1974-87..............725,000.............0.162
Germany (East)..................1948-87...............70,000.............0.011
Grenada (Coup)..................1983-83....................106...............NA
Hungary.............................1948-87...............27,000..............0.007
Korea, North......................1948-87...........1,663,000.............0.250
Laos (PDR).........................1975-87...............56,000..............0.124
Mongolia............................1926-87..............100,000.............0.187
Mozambique.......................1975-87.............198,000..............0.123
Nicaragua (Sandinistas).........1979-87..............5,000..............0.020
Poland................................1948-87...............22,000.............0.002
Rumania.............................1948-87.............435,000.............0.055
USSR..................................1917-87..........61,911,000............0.422
Vietnam (Hanoi)..................1945-87...........1,670,000...........0.105
Yemen, South)....................1967-87..................1,000............0.002
Yugoslavia..........................1944-87..........1,072,000............0.118
SUBTOTALS ..........................1900-87.........106,267,000...........0.477 {b}
COMMUNIST GUERRILLAS........1900-87............4,019,000...........0.477 NA
COMMUNIST TOTAL................1900-87.........110,286,000...........0.477 {b}
WORLD TOTAL......................1900-87.........169,199,000...........0.235{b}

{a} From R.J. Rummel, Death by Government Genocide and Mass Murder in the Twentieth Century, (Transaction Publishers, 1994)
{b} Average

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 04:01 pm
@okie,
Face it, okie, GW Bush sent in war machines into Iraq when the UN Inspectors were there to look for WMDs, and he chased them out to start his war. We ended up killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis, and increasing the number of al Qaida around the world with this decision.

Let's face it, okie, you have no perspective of history, or even have the memory to remember it correctly.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 04:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Face it cicerone, these two statements of yours are false:
(1) GW Bush sent in war machines into Iraq when the UN Inspectors were there to look for WMDs, and he chased them out to start his war;
(2) We ended up ... increasing the number of al Qaida around the world with this decision.
.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 04:21 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
For example, wishing for an international communist government will prove fatal for millions of people.

Quote:

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/com.tab1.gif
TABLE 1
COMMUNIST DEMOCIDE {a}
REGIME.............................YEARS..........DEMOCIDE.......ANNUAL RATE %
Afghanistan........................1978-87............228,000................0.157
Albania...............................1944-87...........100,000................0.118
Angola................................1975-87............125,000................0.302
Bulgaria..............................1944-87...........222,000................0.062
Cambodia (Khmer Rouge).........1975-79........2,035,000................8.161
Cambodia (Samrin).................1979-87...........230,000................0.398
China..................................1949-87......35,236,000................0.120
Cuba...................................1959-87...............73,000..............0.028
Czechosolovakia................1948-68...............65,000..............0.024
Ethiopia.............................1974-87..............725,000.............0.162
Germany (East)..................1948-87...............70,000.............0.011
Grenada (Coup)..................1983-83....................106...............NA
Hungary.............................1948-87...............27,000..............0.007
Korea, North......................1948-87...........1,663,000.............0.250
Laos (PDR).........................1975-87...............56,000..............0.124
Mongolia............................1926-87..............100,000.............0.187
Mozambique.......................1975-87.............198,000..............0.123
Nicaragua (Sandinistas).........1979-87..............5,000..............0.020
Poland................................1948-87...............22,000.............0.002
Rumania.............................1948-87.............435,000.............0.055
USSR..................................1917-87..........61,911,000............0.422
Vietnam (Hanoi)..................1945-87...........1,670,000...........0.105
Yemen, South)....................1967-87..................1,000............0.002
Yugoslavia..........................1944-87..........1,072,000............0.118
SUBTOTALS ..........................1900-87.........106,267,000...........0.477 {b}
COMMUNIST GUERRILLAS........1900-87............4,019,000...........0.477 NA
COMMUNIST TOTAL................1900-87.........110,286,000...........0.477 {b}
WORLD TOTAL......................1900-87.........169,199,000...........0.235{b}

{a} From R.J. Rummel, Death by Government Genocide and Mass Murder in the Twentieth Century, (Transaction Publishers, 1994)
{b} Average




Statism was the leading cause of unnatural death in the last century... let's try it again!
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 05:04 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmpererNero,
As I'm sure you know,we are in fact trying statism again. It matters not whether it is communist, nazist, fascist, or socialist. If allowed to persist, it inevitably evolves into a mass murdering state.

Right now, too damn many Americans want to abandon their personal responsibility for themselves. Instead they want the government to feed, cloth, house, transport, and amuse them, regardless of the inevitable consequences when allowed to persist.

Quote:
George Orwell's NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR constituted a prescient warning to humanity.
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79n/

It was published in June 1949. He time-labeled his warning 1984, but his warning is a perpetual and timeless warning of humanity's propensity to contain and even court personalities in its midst that are dangerous to humanity's existence.


George Orwell in NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, Part II, Chapter IX, wrote:

The two aims of the Party are to conquer the whole surface of the earth and to extinguish once and for all the possibility of independent thought. There are therefore two great problems which the Party is concerned to solve. One is how to discover, against his will, what another human being is thinking, and the other is how to kill several hundred million people in a few seconds without giving warning beforehand.


George Orwell in NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, Part III, Chapter II, wrote:

[O'brien said,] 'Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party. That is the fact that you have got to relearn, Winston. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.'
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 06:28 pm
@ican711nm,
ican knows how to relate to fiction, because he writes fiction all the time.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 06:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cicerone imposter, repeatedly accuses others of doing exactly what he does.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 06:50 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, If that is so, please list them for us. I'm curious to find out what you find. Only my personal quotes, please.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 09:45 pm
@ican711nm,
Gee, part of the impetus for my decision to become a leftie were the books Brave New World, 1984, On the Beach, Animal Farm and The Hills WEre Liars.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 09:46 pm
How many of you have seen the documentary, "Empire of the City: Ring of Power?"
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 10:08 pm
From the conspiracy front:

Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne]
According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."

The company lists as government clients "the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S Air force, and the Department of Justice," in projects that "often require state-of-the-art security solutions for classified or high-risk government sites."

Stratesec (Securacom) differs from other security companies which separate the function of consultant from that of service provider. The company defines itself as a "single-source" provider of "end-to-end" security services, including everything from diagnosis of existing systems to hiring subcontractors to installing video and electronic equipment. It also provides armored vehicles and security guards.

The Dulles Internation contract is another matter. Dulles is regarded as "absolutely a sensitive airport," according to security consultant Wayne Black, head of a Florida-based security firm, due to its location, size, and the number of international carriers it serves.

Black has not heard of Stratesec, but responds that for one company to handle security for both airports and airlines is somewhat unusual. It is also delicate for a security firm serving international facilities to be so interlinked with a foreign-owned company: "Somebody knew somebody," he suggested, or the contract would have been more closely scrutinized.

As Black points out, "when you [a company] have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." And if another company is linked with the security company, then "What's on your computer is on their computer." [American Reporter]

A heightened WTC security alert was lifted on 9/6/2001...

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday [September 11]. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday [September 6], bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed. [NY Newsday]
...there was a power down in WTC 2 the weekend before 9/11...

On the weekend of 9/8, 9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up... "Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower." [WingTV]
...Bush's cousin had a fortunate change of venue for a September 11 business conference...

President Bush's cousin should have been in the World Trade Centre when it was attacked. Jim Pierce, managing director of AON Corporations, had arranged a business conference on the 105th floor of the South Tower where its New York offices were based. But his group was too large so they decided to move across the street to the Millennium Hotel. [Annova]
...and it just so happens that Marvin was in New York on 9/11.

Both WTC 6 and WTC 7 were evacuated within minutes of Flight 11 striking WTC 1, but this did not happen in the twin towers. There were no evacuation announcements in WTC 1 following the plane strike, and workers were encouraged to stay in their building...

Dan Baumbach - WTC 1 Survivor:

Dan Baumbach, 24, a software engineer from Merrick, was stunned to find that building officials in One World Trade Center were telling workers not to evacuate even after the first jet struck. "You can try it, but it's at your own risk," he quoted one official as telling a group of 100 people on the 75th floor. Many chose to follow that advice; Baumbach continued his descent from the 80th floor and survived, but only after braving the debris that fell when the neighboring tower collapsed. "The reason we got out was because we didn't listen," he said. [Newsday]
"In the neighboring south tower people were also evacuating, but an announcement over the PA system tells them their building is secure and they can return to their desks..."
WMV video download (43kB)

Stanley Praimnath - WTC 2 Survivor:

'If they had continued on and exited the building, all of their lives would have been spared. As it was, that's not the way it happened. "As soon as we reached the concourse level, the security guard stopped us and said, 'Where are you going?' Stanley explained about seeing the fire in Tower One. According to Stanley, the guard said, "Oh, that was just an accident. Two World Trade is secured. Go back to your office."' [Mercola]
"Today it is still a mystery why no-one in the towers reached the roof..."

WMV video download (145kB)

The solution to the mystery is simple - the roof doors were locked, as were many stairwell doors.

WTC surveillance tapes feared missing
Imagine my surprise...

Surveillance tapes and maintenance logs are among the missing evidence as investigators try to figure out why the World Trade Center collapsed, federal officials said Monday. ... The lost records probably contain vital information that could help answer questions, Sunder said. Investigators are trying to locate copies of many destroyed documents from the building's owners and city agencies. [FortWayne.com]

plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 10:09 pm
From the conspiracy front:

Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne]
According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."

The company lists as government clients "the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S Air force, and the Department of Justice," in projects that "often require state-of-the-art security solutions for classified or high-risk government sites."

Stratesec (Securacom) differs from other security companies which separate the function of consultant from that of service provider. The company defines itself as a "single-source" provider of "end-to-end" security services, including everything from diagnosis of existing systems to hiring subcontractors to installing video and electronic equipment. It also provides armored vehicles and security guards.

The Dulles Internation contract is another matter. Dulles is regarded as "absolutely a sensitive airport," according to security consultant Wayne Black, head of a Florida-based security firm, due to its location, size, and the number of international carriers it serves.

Black has not heard of Stratesec, but responds that for one company to handle security for both airports and airlines is somewhat unusual. It is also delicate for a security firm serving international facilities to be so interlinked with a foreign-owned company: "Somebody knew somebody," he suggested, or the contract would have been more closely scrutinized.

As Black points out, "when you [a company] have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." And if another company is linked with the security company, then "What's on your computer is on their computer." [American Reporter]

A heightened WTC security alert was lifted on 9/6/2001...

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday [September 11]. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday [September 6], bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed. [NY Newsday]
...there was a power down in WTC 2 the weekend before 9/11...

On the weekend of 9/8, 9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up... "Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower." [WingTV]
...Bush's cousin had a fortunate change of venue for a September 11 business conference...

President Bush's cousin should have been in the World Trade Centre when it was attacked. Jim Pierce, managing director of AON Corporations, had arranged a business conference on the 105th floor of the South Tower where its New York offices were based. But his group was too large so they decided to move across the street to the Millennium Hotel. [Annova]
...and it just so happens that Marvin was in New York on 9/11.

Both WTC 6 and WTC 7 were evacuated within minutes of Flight 11 striking WTC 1, but this did not happen in the twin towers. There were no evacuation announcements in WTC 1 following the plane strike, and workers were encouraged to stay in their building...

Dan Baumbach - WTC 1 Survivor:

Dan Baumbach, 24, a software engineer from Merrick, was stunned to find that building officials in One World Trade Center were telling workers not to evacuate even after the first jet struck. "You can try it, but it's at your own risk," he quoted one official as telling a group of 100 people on the 75th floor. Many chose to follow that advice; Baumbach continued his descent from the 80th floor and survived, but only after braving the debris that fell when the neighboring tower collapsed. "The reason we got out was because we didn't listen," he said. [Newsday]
"In the neighboring south tower people were also evacuating, but an announcement over the PA system tells them their building is secure and they can return to their desks..."

Stanley Praimnath - WTC 2 Survivor:

'If they had continued on and exited the building, all of their lives would have been spared. As it was, that's not the way it happened. "As soon as we reached the concourse level, the security guard stopped us and said, 'Where are you going?' Stanley explained about seeing the fire in Tower One. According to Stanley, the guard said, "Oh, that was just an accident. Two World Trade is secured. Go back to your office."' [Mercola]
"Today it is still a mystery why no-one in the towers reached the roof..."

The solution to the mystery is simple - the roof doors were locked, as were many stairwell doors.

WTC surveillance tapes feared missing
Imagine my surprise...

Surveillance tapes and maintenance logs are among the missing evidence as investigators try to figure out why the World Trade Center collapsed, federal officials said Monday. ... The lost records probably contain vital information that could help answer questions, Sunder said. Investigators are trying to locate copies of many destroyed documents from the building's owners and city agencies. [FortWayne.com]

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 10:10 pm
@plainoldme,
This seems the sort of thing that okie and ican could use to whet their appetites.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2010 10:28 pm
Just read one of Bumble Bee Boogie's threads which made me want to ask why righties need to be told the same things over and over and over and over.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 10:45 am
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

How many of you have seen the documentary, "Empire of the City: Ring of Power?"

Not me. I am not interested in garbage conspiracy theories, pom.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 10:47 am
@okie,
Oh, you mean from such sources as FOX News.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 11:51 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Let's face it, okie, you have no perspective of history, or even have the memory to remember it correctly.

ican knows how to relate to fiction, because he writes fiction all the time.

Cicerone, it would have been accurate if you had instead posted the following:

Let's face it, [I Cicerone] have no perspective of history, or even have the memory to remember it correctly.

[I Cicerone] know how to relate to fiction, because I write fiction all the time.
 

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