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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 12:00 pm
@plainoldme,
Is greed OK with you if rhe greed is OF SUCH A MAGNITUDE THAT IT LEADS ONE TO STEAL what others have lawfully earned?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 12:14 pm
@ican711nm,
There is a problem with your statement ican when you want to argue that stealing is taxation.

Taxation is legal
People that don't pay their taxes haven't lawfully earned that money since it violates the law to not pay taxes.

So ican, it is illegal if it is the law?
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 01:58 pm
@ican711nm,
I guess you want to do away with graduated income tax rates. This will really enrich the rich, and bring on some deadly consequences.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:21 pm
@Advocate,
Yes, I want to do away with graduated income tax rates: I want a flat tax on gross personal income and no other taxes. The Fair Tax would be a dangerous tax addition if the 16th Amendment were not first repealed.

A flat tax will enrich everyone. It will enrich the rich if they make smart investments, and increase and create small businesses. The increased jobs and the new and growing small businesses will enrich the less than rich as well as the rich.

The rich develop jobs for the less than rich, when the rich have more money to invest. The less than rich can become richer, and in fact can themselves become rich.

The rich never made me rich, but they have provided me with many ways to make myself richer through jobs, tools, and adult toys (e.g., airplanes). Also, the greed of the rich for more wealth is only achievable in competition with other rich--satisfying their greed for more profit satisfies everyone's greed for more liberty. When elected government leaders trying to satisfy their greed for power, take the money of the wealthy and give it away to the less than wealthy, profits and liberty are stifled, but greed for power is increased.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:27 pm
@parados,
Parados, while it is lawful for the government to tax for the purposes specified in the Constitution, it is unlawful for government to give tax money away to those who do not earn it. That give away is not specified in the Constitution.

Furthermore, according to the Federalist Papers' interpretation of the Constitution's Article I. Section 8, other than a "uniform" (i.e., flat) tax is unlawful.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:44 pm
@ican711nm,
Where does it specify in the tax code or our constitution that
Quote:
....it is unlawful for government to give tax money away to those who do not earn it."
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 05:11 pm
@ican711nm,
Try: Do you approve of greed when it leads one to steal what others have lawfully earned?

Well, I think the CEOs and the CFOs of most major corporations have stolen the wages of 80% of the working population and that they must be punished for that crime.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 05:14 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

A flat tax will enrich everyone. It will enrich the rich if they make smart investments, and increase and create small businesses. The increased jobs and the new and growing small businesses will enrich the less than rich as well as the rich.



An answer:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o89iKsKw19M

This idiot ican wants to bring back raygunomics!
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 05:15 pm
@ican711nm,
I bet you never earned an honest dollar in your life.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 05:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
There is nothing in the Constitution that says any such thing.

Several years ago, I asked the right wingers on abuzz what they would do about those who do not have a sufficiently high IQ to work or to work at a job that would support anything more than life in a group home.

Several admitted that it never occurred to them that some of the people on welfare fit the above description.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 05:48 pm
@plainoldme,
People like ican just wants them to rot and die. He doesn't have empathy for people with mental or physical disabilities who are not capable of working.

He'd rather see us spend money on warfare than welfare.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 06:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
When was the last time we had a Constitutional war? Where in the Constitution does it say the US can hire mercenaries like Halliburton?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 08:02 pm
@plainoldme,
When it's not spelled out in the Constitution, it's up to the SC to determine its legality. There is a process by which this can be done.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 08:15 pm
I know that private charities voluntarily giving away money, their time and other things are far more effective at really helping people who need help than is the federal government giving away tax payer money. The federal government giveaways turn most of the people receiving those giveaways into parasites eventually incapable of helping themselves support themselves. Federal government giveaways corrupt our government into greed for power and failing to secure the liberty of all lawful people.

I also know that my annual gross income was never more than $70,000. Currently, it is now less than $50,000.

I'm far more interested in assuring that my children and grandchildren will be able to support themselves than I am interested in punishing the wealthy for being wealthier than I am by stealing their money.

The rules relevant to this discussion that I honor are:
Thou shall not steal;
Thou shall not covet ... anything that is thy neighbors.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 08:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I was trying to lead us to Article 1, Section 8 where Congress is given power to declare.

David has been rambling on about deviating from the Constitution, but, when I looked this up just now, I found an entire paragraph describing how no one is certain how Congress is to do it!
JamesMorrison
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 08:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The following statement is taken from this link: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/subprime-blame.asp
Quote:
Plenty of Blame to Go Around
Overall, it was a mix of factors and participants that precipitated the current sub-prime mess. Ultimately, though, human behavior and greed drove the demand, supply and the investor appetite for these types of loans. Hindsight is always 20/20, and it is now obvious that there was a lack of wisdom on the part of many. However, there are countless examples of markets lacking wisdom, most recently the dotcom bubble and ensuing "irrational exuberance" on the part of investors.
The article at the web site you point to, although mentioning the governments' act of suppressing interest rates, thru its "Central Banks", of which the U.S. Federal Reserve is one, says:
Quote:
In response, central banks around the world tried to stimulate the economy. They created capital liquidity through a reduction in interest rates.

One predictable result of this (since those rates were, essentially, zero) was that
Quote:
:...investors sought higher returns through riskier investments. Lenders took on greater risks too, and approved subprime mortgage loans to borrowers with poor credit.


This is not a bad article, so far as it goes, in explaining, somewhat, the actors in, if not the cause of the financial meltdown. The article shows us the value of hindsight towards the actions of home buyers and that of rating agencies, although it doesn't mention our government's actions in legislatively mandating those very agencies. It also briefly mentions (and improperly blames hedge funds) for their actions in responding to market forces as at fault also. Others are also blamed under the generic term of "Greed" the use of which is questionable if one actually would like to determine the actual cause of the meltdown that might present a future remedy.

This article saves its biggest criticism for the lenders (they are the Biggest Culprit[s] )or "mortgage originators" . But who are these devils and why are they so, well, devilish? Investopedia informs:
Quote:
What Does Mortgage Originator Mean?
An institution or individual that works with a borrower to complete a mortgage transaction. A mortgage originator can be either a mortgage broker or a mortgage banker, and is the original mortgage lender. Mortgage originators are part of the primary mortgage market. Investopedia explains Mortgage Originator
The primary mortgage market is highly fragmented in the United States. While there are several large firms that originate a large percentage of mortgages, there are thousands of smaller firms and individuals, which also account for a large percentage of total mortgage originations.

Tallying up what percentage of originations belong to which mortgage originator depends on how an origination is counted. A large percentage of newly originated mortgages are immediately sold into the secondary mortgage market, where they might be counted by the institution that purchases the mortgage in the secondary market as an origination, thus double-counting the origination.

The author of your article fails to make a critical connection between the 'originators' and how they got the money to continue to make those loans (georgeob mentioned the process: recapitalization). But wait, the originators then sell those mortgages? This is how they recapitalize (and they also collect a fee). Sounds like a good short term return for those "originators! After all, if they are going to sell those mortgages, risky or otherwise, it is a good deal for them since they also rid themselves of any corresponding risk (from their default). But, who would buy these sub-prime things? Well, as it turns out, the U.S. government! And lots of them too! So says the Washington Post.
Quote:
In 2004, as regulators warned that sub-prime lenders were saddling borrowers with mortgages they could not afford, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development helped fuel more of that risky lending.

Eager to put more low-income and minority families into their own homes, the agency required that two government-chartered mortgage finance firms purchase far more "affordable" loans made to these borrowers. HUD stuck with an outdated policy that allowed Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to count billions of dollars they invested in sub-prime loans as a public good that would foster affordable housing.

Housing experts and some congressional leaders now view those decisions as mistakes that contributed to an escalation of sub-prime lending that is roiling the U.S. economy.

The agency neglected to examine whether borrowers could make the payments on the loans that Freddie and Fannie classified as affordable. From 2004 to 2006, the two purchased $434 billion in securities backed by sub-prime loans, creating a market for more such lending. Sub-prime loans are targeted toward borrowers with poor credit, and they generally carry higher interest rates than conventional loans.


So we have the government, by way of the Central Bank, encouraging the buying of houses (inflation of the housing bubble generally) due to low interest rates, the government created oligopoly of rating agencies (government chosen favorites with no competition to keep them honest), and the demonstrative wisdom of another government agency (HUD here but Barney and Chris contributed also) going all in on their social engineering by making the two FMs buy said securities. Three strikes and the taxpayers are out.

JM


ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 08:40 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
When was the last time we had a Constitutional war? Where in the Constitution does it say the US can hire mercenaries like Halliburton?

The Constitution grants the federal government the power to hire private people and their organizations to help it wage war!
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=letters+of+marque&x=31&y=9
Main Entry: letters of marque
Pronunciation Guide
Variant(s): also letter of marque
Etymology: Middle English letters of marc, probably part translation of Medieval Latin litterae de marqua
: written authority granted to a private person by a government to seize the subjects of a foreign state or their goods by way of retaliation for injuries; specifically : a license or extraordinary commission granted by a government to a private person to fit out an armed vessel to cruise as a privateer or corsair at sea and plunder the enemy -- called also letters of marque and reprisal

Quote:
Article I.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power
...
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
...

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 09:30 pm
That's for privateers, who are essentially pirates on your side. That's not what Halliburton or Blackwater did. Don't know much about history, do you, ican?
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 09:55 pm
@JamesMorrison,
JM, You're missing the main points; when the government encouraged Fannie and Freddie to make subprime loans, it was not a directive or an order - more like a suggestion. It was not an established law or regulation that Fannie and Freddie had to follow.

They failed good business sense in following the fed's suggestion to make those loans.

The people who who gained were the brokers who sold houses (commissions), and the people extending credit to unqualified buyers (fees).

The credit swaps helped to exacerbate the increase of loans to unqualified buyers; most of those were assembled as derivatives that were sold to banks and finance companies. They were also trading based on greed. If it wasn't for the fact that they were showing huge profits with those trades, nobody would have considered them marketable.

The SEC fell asleep at the switch, and did not regulate these swaps, or investigate the credit ratings being provided by the rating agencies/companies. It was during the Bush era when conservatives didn't believe in "regulations."

If it were not for the all that "profit" being made by the whole chain of events, none of this would have happened. It was all based on greed.

The managers at Fannie and Freddie failed their fiduciary responsibilities for allowing those loans to unqualified buyers.

They were all incompetent, so the loan agents, realtors, banks, and finance companies all made their buck at the expense of a great recession.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 12:15 am
@ican711nm,
You misunderstand what a letter of marque is. I suggest you stick to reading you can understand to build your comprehension. Marvel comics is still publishing. That might be a good place to begin.
 

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