55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 05:03 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Find one mainstream book . . . not a right wing website meant to deceive . . . that supports your misguided notion that the Nazis were leftists.

And how do you define "mainstream?" I suspect that if it agrees with your preconceived biased view, then it is mainstream, right?
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 05:10 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

BTW, that you would propose common sense as a solution, as you often do, is sheer hypocrisy. You are one of the least common sensical people I have ever run across. I told you that if you represented the center as zero and the range from left to right with numbers, that you would be at the extreme end of the right while I would be somewhere about 3/4 of the way to the end of the left. There are several posters here who are much to the left of me and many people I know in life.

It is appropriate to point out to you that at the time the Declaration of Independence was written and declared, it would have been radically right wing most likely, and so far to the right as to be completely off the scale. The entire concept that men's rights are endowed by their Creator, rather than by some dictator or government, that concept was not mainstream, pom. If I have a choice between common sense and self evident truths, versus mainstream, I want to try to choose common sense and the truth every single time. The truth is that Hitler was a leftist, and if you examine the policies of the Nazis, they are undeniably leftist. You can kick and scream to your hearts content, pom, and throw your little tantrum, but it will not alter the truth. If those same policies were instituted now, they would be left, no doubt, and sadly some of them actually are being promoted now.
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 06:13 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme" wrote:
Find one mainstream book . . . not a right wing website meant to deceive . . . that supports your misguided notion that the Nazis were leftists.

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=nazi&x=21&y=9
Main Entry: 1na·zi
Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: nä]ts], na], n], ]i sometimes ]z]
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: German, by shortening and alteration from nationalsozialist National Socialist, from national + sozialist socialist
1 usually capitalized : a member of the former National Socialist German Workers' party founded on fascist principles in 1919 and headed by Adolf Hitler from 1921
2 often capitalized : an adherent of a party or movement similar to that of the Nazis

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=fascism&x=29&y=10
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: fa]shizm, faa], fai] also ]si- sometimes fä] or f]
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, political group + -ismo -ism
1 often capitalized : the principles of the Fascisti; also : the movement or governmental regime embodying their principles
2 a : any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition b : any tendency toward or actual exercise of severe autocratic or dictatorial control (as over others within an organization) <the nascent fascism of a detective who is not content merely to do his duty -- George Nobbe> <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J.W.Aldridge> <a kind of personal fascism, a dictatorship of the ego over the more generous elements of the soul -- Edmond Taylor>

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=23&y=10
Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: sshlizm
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work

All of 'em are samples from the same kinds of puddles of putrid puke!
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 06:36 pm
@mysteryman,
What silly blather!
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 06:37 pm
@ican711nm,
Because the right has used its ill-gotten gains to keep everyone else down. Think of the right's great moments of triumph: slavery, Jim Crow, etc.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 06:42 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Business leadership has to compete among themselves to obtain profits. Government leadership has to compete among themselves for votes to obtain power.


There is no competition in America anymore. Consider how almost all retail outlets are national. When i posted about the man who opens doughnut stores not to sell doughnuts but to establish businesses that can be taken over by Dunkin' Donuts, some right wing cloaca said real estate development is good business.

It would be different if the man had been honest and went into real estate development but, liar that he is, he pretended to sell doughnuts.

the other thing is the right loves conformity. there used to be hundreds of small time American designers creating original clothing and now there are just a handful. The right hates competition. It tries to eliminate all competition.

There are some left wing commercial movements now that come under the heading of locavore.

The right spoils everything for everybody.

Please stop using outsized bold type faces. They look dumb. It's the sort of thing 8 year old do.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 06:44 pm
@okie,
I have a degree in political science. Start there, hypocrite.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 06:45 pm
@okie,
Quote:
It is appropriate to point out to you that at the time the Declaration of Independence was written and declared, it would have been radically right wing most likely, and so far to the right as to be completely off the scale.


Continue to embarrass yourself. Remember what xris told you.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 07:08 pm
@ican711nm,
Communism too is just another sample of the same kind of puddles of putrid puke as are nazism, fascism, and socialism!
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=communism&x=28&y=7
Main Entry: com·mu·nism
Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: kämynizm, chiefly in substand speech -mn-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common + -isme -ism -- more at COMMON
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private ownership of property or capital b : a system or condition real or imagined in which goods are owned commonly rather than privately and are available as needed to each one in a unified group sometimes limited, sometimes inclusive, and often composed of members living and working together : a similar system preventing amassing of privately owned goods and assuring equalitarian returns to those working <Plato's aristocratic communism> <the communism of the early church groups> <the communism obtaining among the early colonists>
2 often capitalized [Russian & German; Russian kommunizm, from German kommunismus, from French communisme] a : a social and political doctrine or movement based upon revolutionary Marxian socialism that interprets history as a relentless class war eventually to result everywhere in the victory of the proletariat and the social ownership of the means of production with relative social and economic equality for all and ultimately to lead to a classless society b : BOLSHEVISM c : a totalitarian system of government in which the state as owner of the major industries and acting through the medium of a single authoritarian party controls in large measure the economic, social, and cultural life of the society
3 often capitalized : strong left-wing activity or inclination that is subversive or revolutionary
4 biology : COMMENSALISM

ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 07:43 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
Because the right has used its ill-gotten gains to keep everyone else down. Think of the right's great moments of triumph: slavery, Jim Crow, etc.

The right does not possess any "ill gotten gains." The right has earned what it has. Only the left possesses ill goten gains. The left steals from those who have earned what they have and gives it to those who have not earned what they have.

In order to establish the USA Constitutional Republic, the left was allowed to temporarily continue slavery. Slavery was eliminated by the right (the Republicans) in 1865. 76 years later. The right had to pay the price of tens of thousands of its lives to finally eliminate slavery in 1865.

Getting rid of "Jim Crowism" took longer, but it too was finally eliminated in around the middle of the 20th century by a majority of the right (the Republicans) and a minority of the left (the Democrats).
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 07:52 pm
@plainoldme,
Since there is no way for you to prove that, except for your word. you will forgive me if we dont take your word for it.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 07:56 pm
@ican711nm,
Boring.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 07:57 pm
@ican711nm,
You really know nothing. Are you and okie sock puppets for each other?
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 07:58 pm
@mysteryman,
No reference.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 08:03 pm
I think it might be profitable to examine the Founding Fathers to discover where each of them . . . and they must be regarded as the individuals they were who disagreed with each other, sometimes vehemently . . . held beliefs that meshed with the right and with the left.

I have tried to explain to okie/ican that a model for the political spectrum is not a line or a ray but a flattened spiral. Sometimes what is left for one generation is right for another.

The Founding Fathers were not as simplistic as either okie or ican . . . if they are individuals . . . comprehend them to be.

I was on another forum where the lefties and the righties had their own little niches and where the discussions among the lefties were more productive but just as conflict filled as they are here. It would be nice to have that sort of thing replicated here in order to discuss the FF at length without okie immediately trying to end said discussion by proclaiming all the FFs right leaning!

plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 08:32 pm
Has anyone noticed that when a mirror is held up to the righties here, showing themselves plainly, they disavow the charges and say what is shown is the left?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 09:10 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

There is no competition in America anymore. Consider how almost all retail outlets are national. When i posted about the man who opens doughnut stores not to sell doughnuts but to establish businesses that can be taken over by Dunkin' Donuts, some right wing cloaca said real estate development is good business.

It would be different if the man had been honest and went into real estate development but, liar that he is, he pretended to sell doughnuts.

the other thing is the right loves conformity. there used to be hundreds of small time American designers creating original clothing and now there are just a handful. The right hates competition. It tries to eliminate all competition.

There are some left wing commercial movements now that come under the heading of locavore.

The right spoils everything for everybody.

Please stop using outsized bold type faces. They look dumb. It's the sort of thing 8 year old do.

Folks, let us face reality here, that being that plainoldme is really one radical leftie. I don't know why I even waste any time with her, as her posts are about as ridiculous as one could imagine, and the above one is a very good example of that. pom seldom debates specific points, such as the Nazi 25 points, but she makes grand sweeping statements, seemingly based upon her radical views of the world that seem to be based upon leftist indoctrinations, class envy, and deeply held prejudices.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 09:20 pm
@okie,
This is not about Nazis so why would I engage in non sequitur?
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 09:29 pm
@plainoldme,
Be honest, there has been much mention of Nazis, and my assertion that Nazism was a leftist idealogy has brought much scorn and criticism from leftists on this forum, so I am not going to back away from that assertion. The facts are on my side, and I am willing to debate every point in the Nazi 25 points to prove it. Instead, you and your ilk resort to general sweeping statements about me not knowing anything. Unless you have the evidence to back up your claims, I would suggest you go to the playground and do your name calling. This is a debate forum, not a playground.

And I would like to point out one important point, understanding fascism and nazism is just one facet of understanding various political viewpoints idealogies, in context with what "American conservatism in 2008 and Beyond" really is, so all of this really does ultimately tie together as part of the same overall subject.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 10:03 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
It is appropriate to point out to you that at the time the Declaration of Independence was written and declared, it would have been radically right wing most likely, and so far to the right as to be completely off the scale.

It's not as if we have to guess; we have a pretty good idea of what conservatives stood for at the time. The core point which conservatives rallied behind - where the name "conservative" originates - was opposition to the revolution and the conservation and restoration of a hereditary monarchy as a holy institution.

Conservatives had been successful with the restoration of the monarchy in England, Scotland and Ireland, and supported the idea that the monarch was chosen by divine intervention and didn't need to derive his authority from the common people or from elected representatives of those.

Likewise in France, where conservatives fought against change, against the end of the absolute monarchy, the end of centuries-old traditions and hierarchies and against the idea that authority should be granted to a head of state by the common people.

But since this is history, I suppose it's fair game for a fact-free reinterpretation from a 21st century American conservative perspective, isn't it?
 

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