The hottest period in history

farmerman wrote:

Have you actually read Golds book?

Not really, but then I had one of the world's premier petroleum geologists, i.e. C. Warren Hunt, tell me pretty much the same thing 20 years ago.

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gungasnake wrote:

Humans have less than nothing to do with it. The whole shift from longbows to firearms at too early a stage of firearm development was due to the shift from the midieval climate optimum to the little ice age, and no longer having the food supply to grow archers of the right size. Nobody smoked cigars or used freon in those days.

I've never heard this bit about not being able to grow archers the right size, but I guess it would make sense except that the chronology doesn't really add up.

The Little Ice Age began in the 14th century. However, the Hundred Years War between England and France didn't begin until 1337 and one of the hallmarks of this war was the presense of the English longbowmen. These archers were instrumental in the major English victories at Cressy (1346), Poitiers (1356) and Agincourt (1415).

The longbow was a more accurate, cheaper and longer-ranged weapon than any gun was at least through the end of the Napoleonic Wars. It was even suggested that the English Army do away with muskets and return to the longbow after the Battle of Waterloo. The chaos of the War of the Roses in England had more to with the English defeat in the Hundred Years War than the French witch with the gunpowder did.

I've also seen it claimed that the English longbow went out of fashion because as English casualties accumulated there were fewer and fewer experienced longbowmen to train new recruits.

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Another way to think about it, if WW-II didn't cause the great man-made eco-disaster, what could?

Even though all of Europe was aflame during WWII and God-only-knows how much greenhouse gas went into the air, the winters in Poland and Russia and Holland didn't abate any. The winter of 1944-1945 in Holland was so cold people cut down ornamental trees on public land to have firewood.

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Its interesting that you mention Hunt since he was the one who essentially "blew the whistle" on Gols's plagiarism of the Russians work. Noone denies the mechanism that Hunt has described for formation of Methyl clathrates and Hydrides in deep ocean emplacement. Its the similar means by which methanogenesis occors in compost heaps and anoxic swamps. However, Hunt argues for a "contributory" mechanism of hydride fprmation , not an exclusive method of abiogenesis. Youseem to get all attached to an either or mentality.

1The vast majority of oil on earth is fossil in origin. Similar fossils in collateral beds and keragen polymers prove this, as do the existence of country rock heavy metals in the cap and strut rock formations (vanadium and uranium "settle out" from country rock deposists, and thee settled out deposist occur in mapped locations nearest to their sources.

2All oil deposist are in sedimentary not tectonic basins. The only tectonics involved are those that define petroleum traps.

3USGS has studied this in depth and has basically stated that the mechanism of abiogenesis , while a definite occurence, does not nearly account for even 0.01 % of the amount of hydrocarbons on earth.

4Looking at oil shales is actual proof as to how certain non pool petroleum reservs are emplaced . The Green River Formation (of Eocene age) accounts for more oil in reserve than has been pumped on the planet to date. NOW, will we strip the state of Wyoming to get at it and refine it?

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flaja wrote:

The winter of 1944-1945 in Holland was so cold people cut down ornamental trees on public land to have firewood.

The winter 1944/45 was in Holland as cold as in all the Netherlands and other countries in Western/Central Europe: an unusually early and harsh winter.

What mad it so exceptional in the Netherlands - it was actually called hongerwinter ("Dutch famine of 1944") - was reasoned in the German embargo.

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http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/the-us-governments-secret-colorado-oil-discovery

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The US Government's Secret Colorado Oil Discovery

Rense

.....Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world - more than 2 TRILLION barrels. On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. Three companies have been chosen to lead the way. Test drilling has already begun.........

Question for Farmerman.....

How did all those dinosaurs dig their way 1000' down under the Rockie mountains in order to die and turn into petroleum??

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From the mid 1300s to the late 1400s there was a struggle between French armor makers and English bowmakers until the archery groups in English armies started to look like the offensive line on an NFL football squad; normal people cannot pull 100+ lb bows.

By 1500, the English simply did not have people who qualified any more; there was some sort of a big debate at the house of lords and the decision was made to switch to firearms.

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gunga, duhhh. Did you read what I just wrote about the Green River Oil SHales? Youre talking about the same thing. Its a unit that stretches from Wyoming to Colorado. It has been folded at the flatirons of the Rockies , but its mostly out in the open in Wyoming. The reporter youve quoted is probably not very savvy about geo mapping so it made a gtood story. Its hardly a "secret" The Green River has been known about for at least 100 years. Its the formation with all the fossil fish nd layers of oil shales.

Perhaps if you read your articles before you post them??

Here, in case you ignored from the previous page, or you conveniently forgot

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Also, if youre familiar with tar sands and oil shales, how can we argue for an abiogenic source for these? Oil shales alone can account for an additional 2 TRILLION barrels of oil rom the US alone, and all these are biogenic fields. You can go visit the Green River Shales in Wyoming and prove to yourself that this giant bed was an inland marine bay deposit with thick units of petroleum from foramaniferan and globigerinoid tests.

PS, only the morons believe that dinosaurs form oil.

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flaja wrote:

This was during the Medieval Wam Period. During this time (ca 700 to 1300 AD) it was so warm that you could grow wine grapes in England and the English actually exported wine to France. The Vikings called North America Vineland because you could grow grapes as far north as modern New Jersey.

One does wonder what the "wam" period was.

One Norseman, and one only, applied the name Vinland to a portion of the coast of North America, very probably to a portion of Newfoundland in which he spent the winter, and that was Leif Erikson. He likely "over-wintered" there in about 997 CE. None of the Norse attempted to grow grapes in any part of North America, and there is a problem that there was no distinction between "grape" and "berry" in the Norse language of the tenth century, and although most Norse scholars think that Leif probably did refer to grape vines, he may well simply have referred to berries of any one of a number of species which were then prevalent in Newfoundland.

The warming and cooling in the North Atlantic was a phenomenon completely separate from the dominant climactic conditions in Northern Europe. Grape vines were brought to the British Isles by the Romans, and continued to flourish there until the cooling period which began in about 1200. Two thousand years ago, the climate in Western Europe and in North Africa was so significantly warmer than it is now that most of the wheat grown for consumption in the Roman Empire was grown in the province of Africa (which roughly corresponds to modern Tunisia, eastern Algeria and western Libya), and many species of plants and animals other than wine grapes flourished as far north as the British Isles.

The climate of the North Atlantic, especially in the central and western portions, went through three dominant stages in 2500 years. From roughly 500 BCE to 500 CE, there was a cooling period, which saw temperatures drop so much that Iceland was, apparently, uninhabitable, even though it was well known to Frisian and Pictish and Irish sailors. This was followed by a period which lasted roughly 500 CE--1200 CE which is known as the "Little Climatic Optimum," when temperatures rose sufficiently that the pack ice of the Denmark Strait (between Iceland and Greenland) and in the Davis Strait (Between Baffin Island and Greenland) retreated a considerable distance to the North. It was during the Little Climatic Optimum that Iceland was permanently settled by the Norse. After he had been outlawed for three years in 982 for murder (usually referred to euphemistically among the Norse of that era as manslaughter), Eric Reudi "overwintered" in what became Greenland (and possibly on the southeastern shore of Baffin Island in the second winter), and it was in 985 that he lead a colonizing expedition to Greenland. In the northern hemisphere, in any period in history, there is hardly any hard and fast statement about the climate and the dominant weather patterns which can be applied at all times to all places.

In your little world, Herr Flaja, everything is simple and universal, isn't it?

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Is flaja foofie's twin brother?

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gungasnake wrote:

From the mid 1300s to the late 1400s there was a struggle between French armor makers and English bowmakers until the archery groups in English armies started to look like the offensive line on an NFL football squad; normal people cannot pull 100+ lb bows.

By 1500, the English simply did not have people who qualified any more; there was some sort of a big debate at the house of lords and the decision was made to switch to firearms.

The Black Death did more to decimate the English population than starvation did. But you can blame the Black Death on the Little Ice Age in that the colder temperatures drove both humans and flea-laden rats indoors and the plague-causing pathogen can apparently reproduce more easily with lower temperatures.

A similar event apparently happened right after the fall of Rome. Volcanic eruptions put so much debris into the air that sunlight was reduced and the bubonic plague made its first recorded presence in world history.

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Francis wrote:

Is flaja foofie's twin brother?

That's entirely possible, and it sounds rather plausible.

For sheer hilarity, though, you can't beat this "debate" between Herr Flaja and Gunga Din about bows and firearms.

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Setanta wrote:

One Norseman, and one only, applied the name Vinland to a portion of the coast of North America, very probably to a portion of Newfoundland in which he spent the winter, and that was Leif Erikson. He likely "over-wintered" there in about 997 CE. None of the Norse attempted to grow grapes in any part of North America, and there is a problem that there was no distinction between "grape" and "berry" in the Norse language of the tenth century, and although most Norse scholars think that Leif probably did refer to grape vines, he may well simply have referred to berries of any one of a number of species which were then prevalent in Newfoundland.

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The warming and cooling in the North Atlantic was a phenomenon completely separate from the dominant climactic conditions in Northern Europe.

Then why do climatologists and historians say otherwise?

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Grape vines were brought to the British Isles by the Romans, and continued to flourish there until the cooling period which began in about 1200.

Aren't you off by at least a half-century? The earliest date I have ever seen for the start of the Little Ice Age is 1250, but the date that I have seen most often is 1300.

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In your little world, Herr Flaja, everything is simple and universal, isn't it?

It is when I have a better grasp of the facts than the likes of you have. I've never said that the Little Ice Age affected the entire world. I've never said it was universal, but by all serious accounts it did affect both Europe and North America.

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flaja wrote:

You ignorant idiot. The grapevines that gave Vinland its name grew wild. They were not intentionally cultivated.

And yet, on page one, in his post #3100871 :

flaja wrote:

The Vikings called North America Vineland because you could grow grapes as far north as modern New Jersey.

Now that was really hilarious, and i actually cut you some slack on that one. "You" can grow grapes a lot farther north than New Jersey in our time, which was not significantly different, climactically, than conditions were on the east coast of what is now Canada during the Little Climatic Optimum. Southern Ontario has a booming wine industry.

You're the ignorant idiot who wrote "you could grow grapes," so don't try to suggest that i dreamed up your idiocy. As a matter of fact, New Jersey's suitability for grapes would have nothing to do with the Vinland of Leif Erikson, which was no where near New Jersy.

In 985, when Erik Reudi lead his colonizing expedition to Greenland, one of the people who accompanied him was Herjolf Bardsson, a merchant. His son, Bjarni Heljofsson, was also a merchant who was then away in Norway, having sailed there the previous summer on a trading expedition. When Bjarni returned to Iceland, he learned of his father's departure, sold some of his goods, and packed his vessel with goods for trade in the newly founded Greenland colony. He left Iceland on much the same course as had Erik the Red's expedition, but was blown off course by a storm, and finally made landfall somewhere near the southeast coast of Newfoundland. He then coasted north for several days, until he had reached the latitude of the settlements in southern Greenland (obviously, Erik had left that information in Iceland), when he sailed east, and made landfall within a few more days.

As he sailed from south to north, he passed the east coast of Newfoundland, and then east coast of Labrador. The Norse referred to the lands to the west of them by four names. The southeast coast of Baffin Island they called the vestri obygdir, which means the western wilderness--they were very familiar with this, and usually hunted there every summer. To the south was the northeastern Labrador coast, which they called Helluland (from hellur, meaning stone), or the land of stone--the northeast coast of Labrador is dominated by the Torngat Mountains. To the south was the country they called Markland, (from mark, meaning forest), and the southeastern coast of Labrador was covered in pine forests. Newfoundland was south of this.

A few years after Bjarni arrived in Greenland, Leif bought his ship from him, and assembled a crew, and set out for the coasts which Bjarni had seen. The pine forests of "Markland" could be a valuable cargo, because wood was scarce in Greenland and Iceland, but it was hardwoods which they really wanted, and Bjarni had seen hardwood forests on the first coast he had sighted, the southernmost coast. Leif sailed five days to the south-southwest, and made landfall on the coast of Newfoundland, probably in Trinity Bay. All the suggestions that he landed in New England are so much hogwash--there was no way that even a modern sailing vessel could make landfall in New England in five days from southern Greenland. Any suggestion that he made it as far as what is today New Jersey is in the realm of complete fantasy.

Jackass.

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Dear Set!

Please don't foget that this member got 40 credit points in history.

Such naturally beats any of our years at the history faculty.

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For anyone interested in this period in the history of North America, i highly recommend Westviking, Farley Mowat, Boston, Little Brown, 1965.

Mr. Mowat's sources were various, including climatologists; and for documentary evidence of the Norse period, he relied upon the Short Saga, the Erik the Red Saga, the Leif Eriksson Saga, and the Thorfinn Karlsefi Saga, as well as referring to the Greenlander's Story.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Dear Set!

Please don't foget that this member got 40 credit points in history.

Such naturally beats any of our years at the history faculty.

Damnit, Walter . . .

. . . I keep forgetting that . . .

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While there is large disagreement among climatologists when the "Lil Ice Age" began and ended, the sediment cores from the Penobscot River mouth and the Sargasso abyssal plain suggest that a date of 1450 through about 1860 is repeatable planet wide. Oxygen isotope ratios just affter the midieval Wurm had plummeted as a f of a possible Dannasgard cyle.

Pery Shelly and his wife had their vacation of 1816 really spoiled by the cold summer so MAry had nothing better to do than sit around and write a story that has the ARctic involved as a grabber.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Dear Set!

Please don't foget that this member got 40 credit points in history.

Such naturally beats any of our years at the history faculty.

How many credit hours in history do you or Setanta have?

The 40 credit hours in history is far more than the 28 hours I had to have in biology courses to get a bachelor's degree in biology (this degree also required 26 credit hours in an assortment of chemistry and math classes). If it weren't for the fact that I wasn't allowed to have a history advisor (because of faculty shortages) and thus didn't know about certain extra-curricular writing requirements until it was too late to meet them, I would have a bachelor's degree in history. What degree do you or Settanta have?

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wow, youre really full of yourself flaja. Remember, we all learn something from our discussions (whether we admit it or not).
All except gunga, cause hes got his head up his cloaca (Damn, I musta tooken some biology in high school)

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How many pertinent references to the period under discussion, and the specific matter of Norse voyages in North America have you provided, Herr Flaja?

(EDIT: Since you probably won't get it--the citation of the Mr. Mowat's book which i provided constitutes a pertinent reference. Who gives a rat's ass how many hours of history courses you claim to have taken, if you can't back up the bullshit you are peddling? I'll take a page from the book of Joefromchicago, King of History. I have 2,325 credit hours in history, and enough degrees to paper the walls of the living room. Prove me wrong.)

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The hottest period in history

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