DOES OUR GOVERNMENT ADEQUATELY "SUPPORT" OUR CONSTITUTION?

I do not have a clue what you assume the philosopy of "American conservatism" is. So I don't have a clue whether I am one or not.

Back on August 4, 2003, page 6 of "the universe and space ... ?", I posted the following:

I've been there, here and done that!

One can now see that anyone with a modicum of forecasting skill could have forecasted my future able2know actions with great accuracy if they relied on what I actually said I was going to do.

Strangely, no one participating in this forum, thus far, has provided any argument whatsoever that refutes my argument that it is illegal for the federal government to transfer money from one group and give it to another.

Strangely, no one participating in this forum, thus far, has provided any argument whatsoever that refutes my argument that it is illegal for the federal government to tax individual dollars of income/revenue differently according to the circumstances in which they were received.

Many have made announcements of their disagreement with my two arguments. Some of these announcements have contained quite colorful and very amusing metaphors. But none of these announcements have contained or been supported by arguments that contain facts, logic and reason.

Therefore, I currently "see absolutely no reason" for believing my arguments invalid.


However, I'll continue to monitor this forum in the hope of participating with others in a rational discussion/debate of my two arguments.

While waiting for the start of some rational discussion on the topic of this forum, I'll divert again to some practical political philosophy.



For the record, I am both what I call a true conservative AND a true liberal, which is equivalent to what is now known as a "classic liberal".



I infer from that, that you think I am what you call an "American conservatism". I have already indicated that I do not have a clue what you think is the philosophy of an "American conservative". You have refused to describe here what you think is the philosophy of an "American conservative". This of course leaves me in the position of being unable to confirm or deny your accusation. I guess that's lotsa fun and games for you. Continue to enjoy, If you like.

Ican

1) Nobody has established that we have any intrinsic and inherent rights to secure.

Frankly, I think they are a figment of your imagination.

2) You are a conservative -- and you are on the extreme right wing of conservatism.

Your personal philosophy about whether or not humans should help other humans stinks like fish left out in the sun.

And your philosophy about whether or not government has a role in all that stinks even worse.

3) Go back to worrying about poor Bill Gates. Go into the streets of your town and kick a few poor people in the ass. Wait for "rational disucussion to start." Do whatever the hell you want. But don't try to fake me out anymore, because that just won't work anymore. I learn! Really, I do learn! It took me a while and I was fooled, but you do not fool me any longer.

ican, Your First Crime list as follows is too limiting:
You wrote: "Specifically, the Government of the United States of America is:
a. Taxing younger people in order to pay retirement income to older people;
b. Taxing younger people in order to pay for medical treatment of older people;
c. Taxing some of us in order to enable others of us to fail to educate still others of us of TE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND;
d. Taxing some of us in order to grant and/or loan money to others of us;
e. Taxing some of us in order to provide income to others of us."

Social security and medicare benefits have been expanded to include the disabled which includes children, new immigrants, and some others.

Taxation is used by the federal government to fund anything they approve including foreign aide, the world bank, subsidies, grants, and waste (of which there are too many to list).

Another one of Frank Apisa's preposterous announcements.

If ever there were an expert on preposterous announcements . . .

I posted a list of examples. I did not intend to post an exhaustive list.

Ican wrote:




Okay, I'll do it.

I argue that it is legal.

WONDERFUL!

Please proceed to argue that.

Show wherein our Constitution as lawfully amended, the power to transfer money from one group to another is delegated to the federal government.

Show wherein our Constitution as lawfully amended, the power to tax different dollars of income/revenue differently, according to the circumstances of their receipt, is delegated to the federal government.

DOES OUR GOVERNMENT ADEQUATELY "SUPPORT" OUR CONSTITUTION AS AMENDED AND, THEREBY, ADEQUATELY SECURE OUR INTRINSIC AND INHERENT RIGHTS TO LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS?

I shall focus on two alleged violations of "the supreme Law of the Land" and the consequent inadequate securing of our related rights:

[1] The transfer of property between people;

[2] Taxing our individual dollars of revenue and income differently.

Participants are encouraged to focus on those security issues that most interest them.

WE FREE CITIZENS OF THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ACTING IN ACCORD WITH OUR OWN JUDGMENTS AND OUR OWN FREE WILL, FILE THIS LAWSUIT IN ORDER TO BETTER SERVE THE INTERESTS OF OUR POSTERITY


WE ACCUSE ALL THOSE ELECTED AND APPOINTED OFFICIALS OF OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WHO ARE NOT COMPLYING WITH THEIR OATHS OR AFFIRMATIONS REQUIRED BY LAW TO SUPPORT OUR CONSTITUTION AS LAWFULLY AMENDED (HEREINAFTER, OCALA), OF PERPETRATING HIGH CRIMES.

WE ORDER THEM TO CEASE AND DESIST PERPETRATING THESE HIGH CRIMES OR WE SHALL LAWFULLY REMOVE THEM FROM OFFICE.


THE FOUNDATION OF OUR LAWSUIT

We fully support without any reservation Our Declaration of Independence (hereinafter, ODOI), and believe that ALL innocent people are equally endowed with certain unalienable rights. These rights include the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We the people of the United States of America instituted our government in order to secure these rights for each of us and for our posterity.

OCALA stipulates those powers the government of our republic shall have to secure our rights, and it expressly denies the government of our republic any other powers.

We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God; indivisible; with liberty and justice for all.

By virtue of this our pledge, we obligate ourselves as free citizens of these United States of America to take such lawful action as we judge is likely to preserve our republic for us and our posterity.

FIRST HIGH CRIME

The Government of the United States of America is currently EXERCISING THE POWER to transfer property between Americans when that power has NOT BEEN DELEGATED to the Government of the United States of America by OCALA. Consequently, the Government of the United States of America usurped these powers, is thereby violating "the supreme Law of the Land", and is thereby perpetrating a crime.

Specifically, the Government of the United States of America is:
a. Taxing younger people in order to pay retirement income to older people;
b. Taxing younger people in order to pay for medical treatment of older people;
c. Taxing some of us in order to enable others of us to fail to educate still others of us of "the supreme Law of the Land";
d. Taxing some of us in order to grant and/or loan money to others of us;
e. Taxing some of us in order to provide income to others of us.

SECOND HIGH CRIME

The government of the United States of America is EXERCISING THE POWER to tax our individual dollars of revenue and income differently according to criteria of their choosing when that power has NOT BEEN DELEGATED to the Government of the United States of America by OCALA. Consequently the Government of the United States of America usurped these powers, is thereby violating the "the supreme Law of the Land", and is thereby perpetrating a crime.

Specifically, the Government of the United States of America is taxing the individual dollars of income and/or revenue received by persons according to:
a. How much revenue and/or income a person has received;
b. When a person received that revenue and/or income;
c. Who received that revenue and/or income;
d. What is the vocation of that person;
e. In what manner the person received that revenue and/or income;
f. Why the person received that revenue and/or income;
g. How much revenue and/or income that person receives within a given time;
h. How much revenue and/or income that person received up to that given time.

WE SEEK THIS REMEDY

According to the 10th Amendment to OCALA, our federal government has only those powers delegated to it by OCALA. Also according to the 9th Amendment to OCALA, we individually have all those rights not prohibited us by OCALA. According to the 13th Amendment, we shall not be compelled into involuntary servitude of any human being or group of human beings. According to the 5th and 14th Amendments, each and everyone of us has the same privileges and immunities, the same rights to life, liberty, property, the same right to due process of law, and the same right to equal protection of the law. Any such action by our federal government constitutes a high crime and shall be terminated immediately.

Our federal government was not delegated by OCALA the power to perpetrate the actions specified above. On the contrary, our federal government is expressly denied by OCALA the power to perpetrate the actions specified above. Nor does OCALA deny us the right to rectify our federal government’s perpetration of high crimes by ending their perpetration. Therefore, we who are among the people shall rectify our federal government.

Therefore, our federal government shall cease and desist perpetrating both of the high crimes specified above, now and in the future.

THE NECESSITY FOR TERMINATING OUR GOVERNMENT’S PERPETRATION OF THE SPECIFIED HIGH CRIMES

I. Liberty lovers must recognize that they act as their own enemies when they use their liberty and representative majority to transfer property from those who have less to those who have more, or to transfer property from those who have more to those who have less. When they do this they are stealing; they are guilty of theft; they are violating the law; they are perpetrating a felony; they are corroding respect for the rule of law; they are encouraging the stifling of their own liberty; they are destroying the viability of their republic. Their posterity will surely suffer from such behavior if it be allowed to continue.

II. It is especially true that our posterity will suffer from stealing if the objective of such stealing is to achieve an egalitarian state.

The contemporary (i.e., 1905) definition of <egalitarianism> is:
1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to
social, political, and economic rights and privileges
2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities
among people."

I claim that equal social, equal political, and equal economic rights and privileges are mutually contradictory.

I infer that:

1. Equal social rights include the right of the innocent to equal status.

2. Equal political rights include the right of the innocent to equal liberty.

3. Equal economic rights include the right of the innocent to equal property.

Enforcement of equal status among all innocent people precludes enforcement of equal liberty, and equal property. Those with superior talent (e.g., knowledge, skills, judgment, and/or accomplishments) will have to have their liberty and property limited inversely according to their unequal talents, in order to achieve equal status. The most talented will have to suffer the most limitations and the least talented will have to suffer the fewest limitations.

Similarly, enforcement of equal property among all innocent people precludes enforcement of equal liberty, and equal status. Those with superior talent will have to have their liberty and status limited inversely according to their unequal talents, in order to achieve equal property.

Similarly, enforcement of equal liberty among all innocent people precludes enforcement of equal property, and equal status. Those with superior talent have to have their property and status NOT LIMITED AT ALL, inversely or otherwise, according to their unequal talents, in order for them to enjoy equal liberty.

Thus, the unequal talents among innocent people must themselves, and not coercion, determine their status and property in order for them to enjoy equal liberty as stipulated by our Declaration of Independence. Otherwise, achieving equality of status or equality of property, precludes achieving equal liberty.

Equal liberty requires a rule of law that is not different for individuals according to differences in the property they receive in mutually voluntary transactions. Equal liberty requires a rule of law that uniformly protects the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States and does not deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Failure of our republican government to abide by these principles will inevitably lead to the dissolution of our republic and its replacement by anarchy and/or tyranny.

III. Failure to obey the rule of law will encourage the birth of one or more factions that will seek their ends by use of deceit and/or force. Failure to obey the rule of law by us in order to maintain the comforts of some at the expense of others of us is never worth the damage it shall certainly do to our posterity.

The use of deceit and/or force breeds the use of deceit and/or force. Eventually a faction shall rise for the purpose of removing from government all those in government who disobey the rule of law with respect to rights of property and/or to the rights of innocent vocations. Another faction shall arise to practice pernicious envy (i.e., the striving to reduce what others have). Still another faction shall arise to practice pernicious jealousy (i.e., the striving to transfer what others have to themselves).

Each of these factions shall be corrupted by any increase in their power over the other factions. That corruption shall lead them to escalate their use of deceit and/or force until they finally shall deny those who oppose them their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Of course such events shall lead to the cessation of our republic in the same manner as the cessation of republics that have preceded ours.

ODOI = Our Declaration of Independence

OCALA = Our Constitution as Lawfully Amended

......

THE OPINION OF EXPERT WITNESSES IN SUPPORT OF THE NECESSITY FOR TERMINATING OUR GOVERNMENT’S PERPETRATION OF THE SPECIFIED HIGH CRIMES

I. Alexander Tyler writing about the viability of democracy, in “The Cycle of Democracy”, 1778:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.”

II. Alexander Hamilton supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 1”, 1788:

“It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force. If there be any truth in the remark, the crisis at which we are arrived may with propriety be regarded as the era in which that decision is to be made; and a wrong election of the part we shall act may, in this view, deserve to be considered as the general misfortune of mankind.”

III. John Jay supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 5”, 1788:

“Distrust naturally creates distrust, and by nothing is good-will and kind conduct more speedily changed than by invidious jealousies and uncandid imputations, whether expressed or implied.”

IV. James Madison supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 10”, 1788:

"The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States. A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source.

A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.

In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists."

V. Alexander Hamilton supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 85”, 1788:

“The additional securities to republican government, to liberty and to property, to be derived from the adoption of the plan under consideration, consist chiefly in the restraints which the preservation of the Union will impose on local factions and insurrections, and on the ambition of powerful individuals in single States, who may acquire credit and influence enough, from leaders and favorites, to become the despots of the people; … and in the precautions against the repetition of those practices on the part of the State governments which have undermined the foundations of property and credit, have planted mutual distrust in the breasts of all classes of citizens, and have occasioned an almost universal prostration of morals.”

VI. Thomas Paine writing about the rights of posterity, in “The Rights of Man”, 1791-2:

“The illuminating and divine principle of the equal rights of man, (for it has its origin from the Maker of man) relates not only to living individuals, but to generations of men succeeding each other. Every generation is equal in rights to the generations which preceded it, by the same rule that every individual is born equal in rights with his contemporary.”

“Government has no right to make itself a party in any debate respecting the principles or modes of forming, or changing, constitutions. It is not for the benefit of those who exercise the powers of government, that constitutions, and the governments issuing from them, are established. In all those matters, the rights of judging and acting are in those who pay, and not in those who receive.”

VII. Thomas Paine writing about the proper origin of a constitution, in “Letter Addressed to the Addressers of the Late Proclamation”, 1792:

“A Constitution is a thing antecedent to a government; it is the act of a people creating a government and giving it powers, and defining the limits and exercise of the powers so given.”

Oh, you want more???

I thought I had already done a good job of responding with what I wrote.

Okay, I'll add a bit more argument to my argument.

Fact is, almost every tax law in the United States, including all the subcategories you mentioned, have been tested in the courts -- and have been found constitutional -- which is to say legal.

The law is what they say it is.

If they say it is legal -- it is.

This is definitional.

If you want to look at the constitution and think you can interpret it better than the Justices -- go ahead.

If you want to look at the constitution and say, "The Justices got it wrong -- that stuff is all unconstitutional and illegal" -- go ahead.

But please don't invite me to do the same.

I've got a better perspective of my limitations than you have of yours.

REPUDIATION OF THOSE INTERPRETATIONS OF OCALA THAT VARY WITH CIRCUMSTANCE

I. It has been argued and accepted by the Supreme Court of the United States of America, that the Supreme Court is delegated by OCALA the power to interpret OCALA in the time variable context of contemporary events, and NOT in the context of its own creation, and NOT in the context of the Declaration of Independence which declared the principles, beliefs and causes for the establishment of our republic and OCALA, itself, as reiterated in the preamble of OCALA. However, no where in OCALA is the Supreme Court of the United States of America delegated such power. Therefore the exercise of such power by the Supreme Court is thereby an usurpation of such power, it is thereby a violation of the law, and it thereby constitutes a criminal act.

II. The judges in the United States of America are expressly denied the power to exceed the bounds of the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND as written, regardless of whether one can find in OCALA, or in any laws of any State, that which can be interpreted or can be construed to permit otherwise.

III. Furthermore, interpretation of OCALA in the context of contemporary events DOES itself constitute amendment of OCALA in a manner other than that specified in Article V of OCALA. For that reason also, interpretation of OCALA by the Supreme Court in the context of contemporary events constitutes an usurpation of such power, it is thereby a violation of the law, and it thereby constitutes a criminal act.


QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA THAT CONSTITUTE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE THAT OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT DELEGATED THE POWER TO CHANGE THE INTERPRETATION OF OCALA, TRANSFER PROPERTY BETWEEN PEOPLE, OR TO TAX A GIVEN OBJECT DIFFERENTLY DEPENDING ON ITS HISTORY AND CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES

ORIGINAL QUOTATIONS FROM ODOI REGARDING OUR RIGHTS

1. (The Declaration of Independence, Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776, The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

2. (ODOI) That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

3. (ODOI) That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

1. We individually, acting in our own perceived individual self-interest, do mutually and equally endow all innocent people with certain unalienable rights, that among these are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

2. In order to secure these our rights, we established the government of the United States of America that derives its just powers from the consent of we the governed.

3. In the event our government obstructs our achievement of these ends, it is our right and duty to ourselves and our posterity to alter or to abolish our government, and to institute altered or new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing the powers we choose to delegate it in such form, as to us shall seem most likely to effect our mutual safety and happiness. These are not the powers we have delegated to our government; these are the powers that are ours by right of our having been born.

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM THE PREAMBLE TO OCALA
4. (The Constitution of the United States of America, Effective as of March 4, 1789) We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

----OUR INTERPRETATION

4. We the people of the United States of America did adopt OCALA for the United States of America. We adopted OCALA in order to ordain and establish a government whose powers shall be limited to those specified by OCALA and shall be applied for the express purpose of securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity. OCALA accomplishes this purpose by establishing justice and the rule of law, by insuring domestic tranquility, by providing for the common defense, and thereby promoting the general welfare.

ODOI = Our Declaration of Independence
OCALA = Our Constituion As Lawfully Amended

QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA ...

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM OCALA DELEGATING SPECIFIC POWERS TO CONGRESS

5. (OCALA, Article I., Section 8.) The Congress shall have power
to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

----OUR INTERPRETATION

5. The Congress shall have the power: TO do those things expressly stipulated in Article I., Section 8. of OCALA.

The following powers have NOT been expressly stipulated in Article I., Section 8. of OCALA or in any other place in OCALA, and, therefore, Congress shall NOT have the power:
TO transfer property from those who have less to those who have more;
TO transfer property from those who have more to those who have less; and,
TO tax any object of property, including an object of money, differently depending on who owns the object, when the object was owned, how the object is owned, why the object is owned, for what purposes the object is used, or the attributes of the person or persons owning the object.