DOES OUR GOVERNMENT ADEQUATELY "SUPPORT" OUR CONSTITUTION?

"one nation under God"


.

We humans who have pledged allegiance to our republic are pledged to support and protect (e.g., secure) these rights.

Well, now that you're no longer shouting, it is a good deal easier to read what you write.

The pledge of allegiance has no meaning unless is voluntarily given by those who understand fully what it is that they are saying, and would be pledging. It is forced upon children, with neither the consent of the child, nor the parent--and it is absurd to suggest that elementary school children understand the full import of pledging allegiance. It is not a product of any government here, and counts for nothing. Therefore . . .

. . . it is your comment which is absurd.

On the contrary. The Pledge obligates us to do nothing because it has no legal force. At most, the Pledge entails a weak moral obligation, on the part of those who actually take it seriously, to adhere to voluntary "pledges."

"a weak moral obligation"?

Ewww. You only follow obligations if they are forced on you through law?

I'd say it is just the opposite -- a moral obligation has a lot higher ground than one based on law.

Forcing schoolchildren to pledge is a gross form of coersion. I quit pledging AS SOON AS I realized what I was saying.

Certainly not. The Pledge of Allegiance entails a "weak" moral obligation because it is made to no one in particular. In effect, the pledger pledges to the pledger (the pledgee, i.e. the flag, we can assume, is indifferent to both the pledger and the pledge).

To illustrate: if I make a promise to you, Piffka, then I have a "strong" moral obligation to fulfill that promise, because I can assume that you will take some action (or refrain from some action) in dependence upon my promise. In contrast, when I pledge allegiance to a flag, I cause no one to act in any fashion. At most, I cause myself to take some action, and my promises to myself do not incur the same moral obligations as my promises to others, for the simple reason that my own actions do not depend upon my promises but on my free will.

If, on the other hand, I were to enter the military and pledge to fulfill my duties as a member of the armed forces, I would incur not only a legal but also a strong moral obligation to follow through with that promise, since the pledge is directed outward to someone (or, in this case, to something).



Me too.

This is so absurd, I don't understand how you can post this nonsense.

We devoted another thread to the question of whether or not we have been endowed by some Creator or God with certain intrinsic and inherent rights -- and you were unable to make a convincing case for that notion being anything more than a wild guess.

There is absolutely no reason to assume any Creator or God -- whether the kind that wear long togas or the kind that are universes -- endowed us with any rights at all -- let alone rights that are intrinsic and inherent rights.

If you have a conservative screed to perpetrate, do so. But stop trying to shoehorn your god into the mix.

Joe, I see. I thought you were putting the law ahead of a personal commitment.

Well if you insist that my all caps statements are shouts, be prepared to don your ear muffs when I subsequently "shout" titles and items I wish to emphasize.



I'm guessing that you lived a tough life here. I'm also guessing that I'm a lot older than you. Perhaps that explains why your experience is so different than mine. What you say about children giving the pledge is true. But the better part of my lifetime has been as an adult. In that time, I and my contemporaries have voluntarily and eagerly given the pledge numerous times with great passion and sincerity. I guess my lawsuit only represents folks with my kind of experience with the pledge. Pity

The 13th and 14th amendments don't apply to income taxes

Ah so When Bill Gates is placed in involuntary servitude of other citizens by my government, that's ok with the Supreme Law of the Land, right? Just 'cause you write it, doesn't make it right.

Ah so When Bill Gates's individual dollars of income/revenue are discriminated against by the government and taxed at a higher rate than mine, thereby making him unequal to me before the same law, that's ok with the Supreme Law of the Land, right? Just 'cause you write it, doesn't make it right.

beware caps ahead

......

ODOI = Our Declaration of Independence

OCALA = Our Constitution as Lawfully Amended

......

THE OPINION OF EXPERT WITNESSES IN SUPPORT OF THE NECESSITY FOR TERMINATING OUR GOVERNMENT’S PERPETRATION OF THE SPECIFIED HIGH CRIMES

I. Alexander Tyler writing about the viability of democracy, in “The Cycle of Democracy”, 1778:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.”

II. Alexander Hamilton supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 1”, 1788:

“It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force. If there be any truth in the remark, the crisis at which we are arrived may with propriety be regarded as the era in which that decision is to be made; and a wrong election of the part we shall act may, in this view, deserve to be considered as the general misfortune of mankind.”

III. John Jay supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 5”, 1788:

“Distrust naturally creates distrust, and by nothing is good-will and kind conduct more speedily changed than by invidious jealousies and uncandid imputations, whether expressed or implied.”

IV. James Madison supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 10”, 1788:

"The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States. A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source.

A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.

In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists."

V. Alexander Hamilton supporting the adoption of OCALA, in “Federalist Paper No. 85”, 1788:

“The additional securities to republican government, to liberty and to property, to be derived from the adoption of the plan under consideration, consist chiefly in the restraints which the preservation of the Union will impose on local factions and insurrections, and on the ambition of powerful individuals in single States, who may acquire credit and influence enough, from leaders and favorites, to become the despots of the people; … and in the precautions against the repetition of those practices on the part of the State governments which have undermined the foundations of property and credit, have planted mutual distrust in the breasts of all classes of citizens, and have occasioned an almost universal prostration of morals.”

VI. Thomas Paine writing about the rights of posterity, in “The Rights of Man”, 1791-2:

“The illuminating and divine principle of the equal rights of man, (for it has its origin from the Maker of man) relates not only to living individuals, but to generations of men succeeding each other. Every generation is equal in rights to the generations which preceded it, by the same rule that every individual is born equal in rights with his contemporary.”

“Government has no right to make itself a party in any debate respecting the principles or modes of forming, or changing, constitutions. It is not for the benefit of those who exercise the powers of government, that constitutions, and the governments issuing from them, are established. In all those matters, the rights of judging and acting are in those who pay, and not in those who receive.”

VII. Thomas Paine writing about the proper origin of a constitution, in “Letter Addressed to the Addressers of the Late Proclamation”, 1792:

“A Constitution is a thing antecedent to a government; it is the act of a people creating a government and giving it powers, and defining the limits and exercise of the powers so given.”

absolutely no reason

absolutely no reason

absolutely no reason



Ok then, Frank, who in hell is your deity?

Try to get your head on straight, Ican.

If you want to assume there is a GOD that gives us rights -- do so. But understand that it is nothing more than a wild guess -- and not a particularly logical one at that.

Good luck continuing your conservative screed.

I suspect there will be more people here who see American conservatism and their greed for the garbage that it is -- than who will agree with you, but I am sure you will provide lots of interesting stuff while chasing this dream.

more titles; more emphasis; a couple of acronyms; more caps
...

ODOI = Our Declaration of Independence
OCALA = Our Constitution As Lawfully Amended
...

REPUDIATION OF THOSE INTERPRETATIONS OF OCALA THAT VARY WITH CIRCUMSTANCE

I. It has been argued and accepted by the Supreme Court of the United States of America, that the Supreme Court is delegated by OCALA the power to interpret OCALA in the time variable context of contemporary events, and NOT in the context of its own creation, and NOT in the context of the Declaration of Independence which declared the principles, beliefs and causes for the establishment of our republic and OCALA, itself, as reiterated in the preamble of OCALA. However, no where in OCALA is the Supreme Court of the United States of America delegated such power. Therefore the exercise of such power by the Supreme Court is thereby an usurpation of such power, it is thereby a violation of the law, and it thereby constitutes a criminal act.

II. The judges in the United States of America are expressly denied the power to exceed the bounds of the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND as written, regardless of whether one can find in OCALA, or in any laws of any State, that which can be interpreted or can be construed to permit otherwise.

III. Furthermore, interpretation of OCALA in the context of contemporary events DOES itself constitute amendment of OCALA in a manner other than that specified in Article V of OCALA. For that reason also, interpretation of OCALA by the Supreme Court in the context of contemporary events constitutes an usurpation of such power, it is thereby a violation of the law, and it thereby constitutes a criminal act.


QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA THAT CONSTITUTE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE THAT OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT DELEGATED THE POWER TO CHANGE THE INTERPRETATION OF OCALA, TRANSFER PROPERTY BETWEEN PEOPLE, OR TO TAX A GIVEN OBJECT DIFFERENTLY DEPENDING ON ITS HISTORY AND CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES

ORIGINAL QUOTATIONS FROM ODOI REGARDING OUR RIGHTS

1. (The Declaration of Independence, Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776, The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

2. (ODOI) That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

3. (ODOI) That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

1. We individually, acting in our own perceived individual self-interest, do mutually and equally endow all innocent people with certain unalienable rights, that among these are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

2. In order to secure these our rights, we established the government of the United States of America that derives its just powers from the consent of we the governed.

3. In the event our government obstructs our achievement of these ends, it is our right and duty to ourselves and our posterity to alter or to abolish our government, and to institute altered or new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing the powers we choose to delegate it in such form, as to us shall seem most likely to effect our mutual safety and happiness. These are not the powers we have delegated to our government; these are the powers that are ours by right of our having been born.

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM THE PREAMBLE TO OCALA
4. (The Constitution of the United States of America, Effective as of March 4, 1789) We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

----OUR INTERPRETATION

4. We the people of the United States of America did adopt OCALA for the United States of America. We adopted OCALA in order to ordain and establish a government whose powers shall be limited to those specified by OCALA and shall be applied for the express purpose of securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity. OCALA accomplishes this purpose by establishing justice and the rule of law, by insuring domestic tranquility, by providing for the common defense, and thereby promoting the general welfare.

QUOTATIONS WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS FROM ODOI AND OCALA ... (to be continued)

Ican't, you're a piece of work . . . how very arrongantly condescending of you to assume that you are old and wise, and that i am not.

Using 18, the age of legal majority, well over half my life has been spent as an adult.

Your response to what i wrote was a set of condescending sneers about what my experiences in life must have been--you have no argument.

Sorry, I apologize. You are right it was arrogant.

However, even without that "sneer", my argument is relevant if not persuasive.

ODOI = Our Declaration of Independence
OCALA = Our Constituion As Lawfully Amended

QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA ...

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM OCALA DELEGATING SPECIFIC POWERS TO CONGRESS

5. (OCALA, Article I., Section 8.) The Congress shall have power
to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

----OUR INTERPRETATION

5. The Congress shall have the power: TO do those things expressly stipulated in Article I., Section 8. of OCALA.

The following powers have NOT been expressly stipulated in Article I., Section 8. of OCALA or in any other place in OCALA, and, therefore, Congress shall NOT have the power:
TO transfer property from those who have less to those who have more;
TO transfer property from those who have more to those who have less; and,
TO tax any object of property, including an object of money, differently depending on who owns the object, when the object was owned, how the object is owned, why the object is owned, for what purposes the object is used, or the attributes of the person or persons owning the object.

QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA ...

ORIGINAL QUOTATIONS FROM OCALA REGARDING THE SUPREMACY OF OCALA

6. (OCALA, Article VI) This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land;

7. (OCALA, Article VI) The judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

6. OCALA, and the laws of the United States of America which were made in pursuance of OCALA; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority delegated to the United States by OCALA, shall be the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND.

7. The judges in the United States of America shall always be bound by the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, and nothing to the contrary in OCALA or in any laws of any State shall ever be interpreted or be construed to permit otherwise.

ORIGINAL QUOTATIONS FROM OCALA REGARDING POWERS AND RIGHTS NOT EXPRESSLY DELEGATED OR NOT EXPRESSLY STIPULATED BY OCALA

8. (OCALA, Amendment IX, 1791)
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

9. (OCALA, Amendment X, 1791)
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

8. The enumeration in OCALA, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others claimed by the people and not expressly denied by OCALA.

9. The powers NOT delegated to the government of the United States of America by OCALA, NOT prohibited by OCALA to the government of the United States of America by OCALA, NOT prohibited by OCALA to the governments of and within the states, and NOT prohibited by OCALA to the people, are reserved to the people, or to the governments of or within the states, respectively. The government of the United States of America shall have the burden to prove the delegation to it by OCALA of any power the government shall exercise, and to prove that any person is denied by OCALA any power that person shall claim.

ORIGINAL QUOTATIONS FROM OCALA REGARDING OATHS TAKEN BY ELECTED AND APPOINTED OFFICIALS

10. (OCALA, Article VI) The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution;

11. (OCALA, Article II, Section 1) Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

12. (OCALA, Article II., Section 4.) The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

10. The Senators and Representatives of the Congress, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States of America and of the several states, are bound by their oath or affirmation, to act in accord with, preserve, protect and defend OCALA.

11. At the beginning of each term of his office, the President of the United States of America did swear (or affirm) to faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and to the best of the President’s ability, act in accord with, preserve, protect and defend OCALA.

12. The elected and appointed officials of the government of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of high crimes. An elected or appointed official commits a high crime when she or he violates her or his oath or affirmation to act in accord with, preserve, protect and defend OCALA, the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, and is impeached and convicted of that high crime. In such an event, that elected or appointed official shall be removed from office.

QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA ...

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM OCALA REGARDING THE PROCESS OF AMENDING OCALA

13. (OCALA, Article V) propose[d] Amendments... shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress;

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

13. Article V and no other article in OCALA specifies the method for amending OCALA. OCALA does not specify any other method for ratifying amendments to OCALA than the two methods specified in Article V.

OCALA can only be amended by the ratification of the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by the ratification of conventions in three fourths of the states, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress.

Neither the legislative branch, the judicial branch or the executive branch of the government of the United States of America is delegated by OCALA the power to ratify amendments to OCALA.

QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA ...

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM OCALA REGARDING OUR PROIBITION OF SLAVERY AND INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE

14. (OCALA, Amendment XIII, 1865, Section 1) Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

----OUR INTERPRETATIONS

14. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States of America, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Involuntary servitude includes but is not limited to the involuntary transfer of one’s own property to another person.

QUOTATIONS, WITH OUR INTERPRETATIONS, FROM ODOI AND OCALA ...

ORIGINAL QUOTATION FROM OCALA REGARDING A PERSONS PRIVILEGES, AND IMMUNITIES, INCLUDING THE CONDITIONS FOR DEPRIVATION OF RIGHTS WITHIN THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAW

15. (OCALA, Amendment XIV, 1868, Section 1) No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

----OUR INTERPRETATION

15. NOT the government of the United States of America, and NOT the government of or within any state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States that are secured in accord with OCALA; NOT the government of the United States of America and NOT the government of or within any state shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law that is secured in accord with OCALA; and these governments shall not deny to any person within their jurisdictions the equal protection of the law that is secured in accord with OCALA.