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Reading through some of the archives I am impressed with the responses, so I am hoping that somebody will help give me some clarity.

My wife is active duty military with a top secret clearance. she also is a childhood sexual abuse survivor who has always had difficulty with honesty and financial issues. I was a stay at home dad for ten years (mutually agreed), and don't have even half of the earning potential that she has.

The current problem is she is accumulating a lot of debt. She has done this over a long period of time and it is getting unmanageable. Over the last twenty years I have constantly said that it is important to that the family be financially stable, yet she constantly undermines this and lies about what she has done. Right now she is in Iraq and is paying for stuff that the Army should be paying for, which is something she has done before. I am convinced that this is no different that her being a shop-aholic, it is using family financial resources to fill a hole in herself, which never works for long, and she will not get professional help for the problem.

We are at the point where we might financially collapse. if that happens she losses her security clearance (might anyway due to debt load), so will lose the career that she cares so much about. It also would negatively impact her post army career choices a great deal. She has a lot to lose if the family finances get out of hand.

My current thinking is that I am tired of fighting for something that she can't/won't do. I can't control her spending and she will not, when I get proactive she goes to more work to hide spending. I am hurt that me and the family don't mean enough to her to get help and fix the problem, and I am tired of being lied to about money. I am considering giving up on the money stuff, telling her to handle it. She caused the problem, and she needs to fix it. While I don't think it a good idea to tell her now, if she can't/doesn't and it comes to bankruptcy then I am done with the marriage as well. I don't want to end the marriage even though there are a lot of good reasons to call it a day on that as well, but her successfully sabotaging the family would be the final straw for me.

WHat would you do? Leave, fight, ultimatum, not fight but not leave yet (my current best option)?? I am trying to make sure that I see everything.

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You do understand that your priorities are mixed up in here?

It does seem that your wife has a problem.

You could say something along the lines of "I am becoming concerned that the debt we have will soon reach the point where our family (I would use the word 'family' rather than, 'you' or 'we') won't be able to afford to pay of the debts.

(allow her to say something here)

I am also concerned that if that happens, it may affect your job. I want to see you happy and doing things you love, and it would distress me if you could no longer do that.

After that, you can let her know that you are their for her come what may.
........................................
She may have a problem that leads her to do these things, but you can't change who she is- you can only voice disagreement, and let her decide for herself what she wants to do.

If it does affect you adversely, you convey that message, the bright hopes you have, and how you feel they're not being met (or how you're afraid that your hopes won't be met).

........................................

You do understand you can attend a counselor yourself for help? Counselors aren't just there for those with the problem, but also there for those with a problem (in this case - the 'problem' of how to deal with your wifes problems, how to deal with the affects on yourself, and how to deal with other related problems).
.......................................

In the end it may just come down to letting your wife learn for herself, and promising yourself you'll be there for her when (or if) it all comes crashing down.

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You both need counseling. She needs it in order to deal with what is possibly an obsessive-compulsive thing, and/or clearing up what hasn't yet been cleared up re her abuse. Good for her for trying to get past it and have a good life but she is sabotaging herself and needs to know why.

You need it in order to be able to deal with it. Being the stay at home (or stay behind) spouse of a military person is very hard. And having a gross inequity in salary potential is not easy, either.

vikorr is right, it's time for you and her to talk. She may dismiss it out of hand. She may realize you're right. She may pay you lip service. She may start a fight. She may try, or not. But you don't know this, not really, unless you have a serious talk with her, and now is better than later. One thing you can speak to her about is your children's (child's?) future. As in setting aside money for college, and for your retirement. If your wife's paycheck is split off to retirement accounts and a college fund, even before you or she see the money, that will help you financially. That's not, per se, a cure for things but you do need to be practical re your finances.

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This reminds me of an alcoholic.
Not been there myself, but it is always said, they can only get out, if the DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES that this is what they want, and not much reasoning from friends and family will get through...

My personal, maybe very unprofessional suggestion would be:

[quote]I am hurt that me and the family don't mean enough to her to get help and fix the problem, and I am tired of being lied to about money. I am considering giving up on the money stuff, telling her to handle it. She caused the problem, and she needs to fix it. While I don't think it a good idea to tell her now, if she can't/doesn't and it comes to bankruptcy then I am done with the marriage as well.[/quote]

Tell her EXACTLY that.
Maybe not while she is away (when is she due to be back?), but straight after.
It might be her wake-up call.

If not, you have yourself and your child(ren) to protect from her and her financial mess...

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I am talked-out, every time I bring it gently up she says that she understands the dangers and the problem, that she will do better, but her behaviour never changes. If I push the subject she makes it out that I am over controlling, that it is my fault that we are in financial trouble, and if I keep going she starts talking about divorce.

Ya, we have one kid in collage, two more on the way, and no money saved for it, i presume now with our credit wrecked no way to pay for it, which pisses me off. I am 46, been married for 21 years, have three great kids, no savings and negative net worth. The only possible salvation that I see is my wife's ability to add to her already good military retirement by staying in a few more years (20 now) and her possible ability to get a high paying job after the army.

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That sounds really awful, and I am so sorry for you.

My husband has been in the army for just over 20 years, and I know they are not paid badly.
Especially when they are deployed.
My husband always says these times are his (financial) best, since he gets more and spends less (everything he needs is paid for)

My husband supports his daughter, and (grudgingly) an also financially messed up ex-wife, and we are still not in any debt.
We will be even OK, when I have to give up my job this year to move to the States, so I can imagine there is something seriously wrong with your wife's money management.

Are you financially independent or are you still at home and out of work?

If so I think I would try and get back into work as soon as possible (might be difficult after a 10-year break, I know), and try and get financially independent.

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I have been working again for about 8 years, but I don't have a degree . I have been a chef, but I am aging out of the profession. My plan is to be a prison cook, which will get me about $30 k and bennies. I can live on that, after the inevitable bankruptcy that would be part of the divorce.

My wife manages to spend about $1,000 per month deployed. She buys stuff for her company which she also did last deployment, which is a massive misappropriation of loyalty.

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Listening, with sympathy - in a way, to both of you, but mostly for you, Hawkeye. I can imagine being very angry in your shoes, primarily for the children. I agree it sounds akin to shopaholism to fill a 'hole', but am no psychologist myself.

I don't have any immediate advice re how to control the financial disaster and stay married, or even how to do it and divorce. It sounds quite the pickle. Jespah seemed to have some good ideas re finances as a start.. if you can get those to happen.

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Quote:

Ya, we have one kid in collage, two more on the way, and no money saved for it, i presume now with our credit wrecked no way to pay for it, which pisses me off. I am 46, been married for 21 years, have three great kids, no savings and negative net worth. The only possible salvation that I see is my wife's ability to add to her already good military retirement by staying in a few more years (20 now) and her possible ability to get a high paying job after the army.

If your kids are old enough - try to get a job (difficult I'm sure, given you've raised the kids, and your age.). Are you staying with her because you love her, or because you have no financial independence, or a bit of both?

Your anger, while understandable, won't help your situation with her. What does it achieve in real terms? I understand it will express a great deal of frustration...though I doubt it will be seen as such. Does it express love? (if you love her - that I don't know). Does it express concern? Anger is usually interpreted only as blame (which is why people become defensive).

Your wife is doing the best thing she can by herself - she will have justified this to herself - a major part of her won't think she is deserving of blame (ie your anger)...not until she admits the problem, and that admittion is something only she can arrive at - It is somehow right for her at this point in time (and for the previous 21 years by the sound of it) to do what she is doing.

But what about doing the right thing for you? She may never have done so in relation to this aspect (or she may have), even if she loves you...which, if she's threatening divorce, these days she may or may not love you - that said, she may love you to pieces, and threatening divorce may just be a means to fend of something that is very threatening to her, or another similar reason.

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Again, I agree with vikorr. It'll help all around if you get a job. The kids are old enough for you to go out and do stuff. Chef stuff. Hell, even fry cook.

You need to make some money (a) because your kids could use some semblance of a safety net and (b) because you could use the emotional shot in the arm that comes from asserting your independence.

Keep your money separate. Trust me, you won't regret that. As in, a bank account with your name on it. If you like, put it in trust to your youngest child (e. g. the one farthest from college).

And talk again to your wife. I know you may feel like a broken record but this time spin it as funds for your children. She cannot/should not deny that. If she does, then all I can say is that there could very well be a sickness there. I am no doctor and God knows I don't want to diagnose anyone over the 'net, but a mother denying education funds to her kids in favor of buying stuff for her unit that they can get for free anyway, well, that (and I'm being nice here) smacks of misplaced priorities up the yin yang.

Just try. One more time. And then know that you did all that you could have done.

You seem set on divorce or at least you seem resigned to it happening. So, like I said, get work and start to take some control of the situation. It has spiraled out there long enough. There are two of you in the marriage and there will be two sides if there is a divorce. Show the court that you care about the kids, that you want what's best for them, and that you are doing everything in your power to give them a good life and a bright future. Dollars to donuts, if you do that, you will end up with custody and she will have to pay support. And her wages can and will be garnished. Uncle Sam, even for active military personnel, takes child support out of paychecks before pretty much anything else. Get that money earmarked for your kids. If she will not do so voluntarily then go to court and get it that way. Your children deserve care and attention, and shoes, books and braces, too. Garnishing a good chunk of her salary should give her a wakup call on her spending habits. I do hope so.

PS I wonder what the heck her squad feels about all of this. Do they not see how screwed up it all is?

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With out reading most of the other peoples advice, what I would offer is this.

Take some time to tell her what you are feeling right now ( about calling it quits due to her problem)

make sure that she does not say anything to interrupt you, and that you allow yourself all the time to speak that you need to make sure you say everything you need to.
It is only -emotionally- fair to at least warn her . Even if you KNOW she will not change, and you KNOW she wont really listen, and that she will continue what she is doing.. you should give her the chance to really hear that the consequence she is facing right now is you leaving.

Then give it a reasonable, set amount of time. Do you think you can see a diffrence in her behavior in .. 6 months?
4 months?
A week? A year?

What ever time frame you think is appropriate, tell her and then finish the conversation.
I would suggest to be prepared to leave at the end of that time frame too if that is possible.

Or

Can you take control of the finances?
Set up a second account to where you can automatically transfer money to a credit card/debit card that she keeps with her and have that be the only amount of money she can spend each month.. and you pay the bills online, and work through the finances yourself with another account? One she does not have access too.

My husband and I do just this. We have 4 accounts.
One is the joint account where all of the bills are paid from, and our work checks are deposited. One account that I use for my small business. Then 2 other accounts. One is his, and one is mine.
Then we have the bank automatically transfer a certain amount from the main account to our 'fun' accounts. We have debit cards and checks for those accounts so that we have full access to the money at any time.
We dont have to be accountable for what we spend with those accounts. It is money just for us, and all of our bills are already paid BEFORE the bank makes the transfers for us..

maybe that kind of set up might work.. If you have not already tried it.. ?

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I confronted her on her spending, specifically about $8,000 in mail order while in Iraq, some from companies that I know that she has bought from in the past. She claims she did not buy the stuff, that it must be fraud. She says that she will sign a legal statement that it was not her. she says that it must be some fraud by the postal people. Which is slightly possible...except that the has a history of lieing, she has a history of buying mail order while deployed, and a few years back she took a trip of a couple of days during which time the ATM card was used at her location to take out several hundred dollars that we could not afford, which she claimed that she did not do. She signed a statement to that effect at the bank, and while they did not charge us with fraud they did not find evidence of her statement being the truth either.

All day today I have been kicking myself for not dealing with the credit card stuff, that maybe somebody charged up the card and they got away with it because I did not do what needed to do. However, tonight I am increasingly feeling that my wife did do this, that she is lying about it even though the cost of making a false claim of credit card fraud is huge legally and economically. I am thinking that she is not well, kinda a mental illness issue. The card is cancelled, and she says that she does not want me to send her the new card.

Thanks for the responses so far. BTW- I have been working for 8 years, our youngest is 14 years old.

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Sounds more and more like a serious illness.
Is there any way you can cancel the credit card?

If your wife claims, somebody is using the data illegally, it should be in her interest, as well as yours, and in your heart you know that she is the one using it!
However, I think your first action on your wife's claims should have been to cancel the card.

Not having a credit card should cut the spending by a great deal.

Do you have separate bank accounts?
I would make sure, that your earnings are NOT accessible by her through the credit card.

Good luck to you!

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We have one account that is joint and that is my name. However, I can not control her access to credit nor her taking the cash from her paycheck. I can not control her spending, I can only object to her spending. She has got to want to stop or at least get help, just like a junkie. And just like a junkie she will not do that till she hits bottom, where ever the bottom is for her. She has a terrible amout of pride, which dates back to her sexual abuse as a child, and while this pride has hobbled her all her life she does not yet see this. Because of pride, the bottom takes long to get to for her.

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Yes, I agree with the junky theorie.
I am concerned for your savings, though.
Make sure they don't get 'lost' in her spending sessions...

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Exactly. Her hitting bottom is one thing. Her trashing your credit and preventing your kids from going to college is something else entirely.

So, since you already hold the purse strings, cancel the credit card and replace it with a prepaid debit card. Here's your monthly $$, dear. Make it last.

Not nice, I know, but she is out of control and you know, and she knows, that this is so. And, it's not a great dynamic to have, e. g. to be in that kind of catbird seat with money. But right now she needs to go on a fiscal diet.

You say she has lied before. How has that been treated? Has she been allowed to slide? Or have there been meaningful consequences? She is not your child but she is putting herself into that role. I hate to suggest to one spouse to be the parent but it's starting to look like that's the only way to deal with things, at least for now.

PS I, too, agree that there's something going on in terms of illness. While her medical records are private -- even from you -- you can always suggest that she the doctor on base. Even just for physical stuff. At least rule that out, plus the GP might spot something and then you don't have to be the bad guy in that area.

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I am sure you guys mean well, but either I don't get it or you don't.....I can't control what she spends, and I can't do anything about it against her will without ruining not only her army career but also her TS security clearance thus her follow on career. The financial stuff screwing up her career impacts her future earning and pension to the potential tune of over $1 million. I can divorce her but if she does not get help for her problem she(and we) will end up in the same place as if I did not, with the exception of my earnings being safe, but which are relatively small.

Being of sound mind and being responsible in all matters including financial are requirements to qualify for a TS clearance. All evidence that comes to light that shows otherwise must be investigated. if they are found to be true the TS is voided, which impacts the civilian career to the tune of -$30,000 per year on average. The next step is she loses her leadership position in the brigade, and about a year later she will be forcibly retired from the army.

The risk/reward evaluation for our situation is not normal, and I need a high threshold of concern before taking action makes sense. I am now for the first time at that point. I have given her one last chance to admit that she did the charges if she did, if she denys it again I will see the agencies on the fort to see what my options are through the army system. There is a high likelihood that once I open my mouth that life as we know it is over, no matter what exactly happens.

I am giving her one last chance to come clean, if she takes it she will have to agree to let me handle the money with her agreeing not to take any credit. It will be her agreeing to be treated like a child on finances, and there will be consequences for her not following the rules. Potentially she will need to agree to get professional help. If she does not admit to what she did and/or agree to get help, then I will pursue all means available to me to protect myself and the kids, which will probably mean and end to her career and/or the marriage.

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It's unfortunate but you're probably right, that there are few good ways for this to turn out and none of them look terribly likely.

You seem very clear-headed and understand what you need to do. Stick around -- I've seen you give good advice to others -- and vent if you like.

I hope it goes as well for you as it can.

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Hawkeye--

I've been reading along.

The choice between ending her career and ending your marriage may be a bleak one, but this may be the only choice you have.

Good luck.

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So my wife calls today, saying that she now realizes that she has an addiction problem, that she is seeing someone. From now on she wants to have no access to credit, have me keep checking to make sure that she has not opened credit, and she wants to be made to justify the cash that she spends.

Things are looking up.

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could use a sounding board

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