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My little politics blog

 
 
Butrflynet
 
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Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 03:31 pm
Thanks for that link, Bill. Interesting discussion going on in the comments section of that article.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 03:39 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Btw, I particularly enjoyed the factcheck.org demonstrating Hillary's obvious BS. I especially liked where they exposed Obama's fib about not liking a single payer system. I can see why he'd want to distance himself from that; but I like him more for liking it in the first place. :wink:


Bill, regarding Obama and the misquote about single payer system, have you seen this? Any thoughts after reading?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080123/ap_on_el_pr/health_care_fact_check_2


That Fact Check.org piece glosses over the very nuance that makes the difference. Being a proponent is not synonymous with saying you'd try to implement single-payer. Senator Obama has tempered that with pragmatism, admitting that the momentum and influence of the entrenched interests make the "ideal" unattainable in practical terms in any reasonable time-frame.

Barack Obama knows how to make progress rather than becoming bogged down in the "all or none" mindset that has the partisans in Washington frozen in place. He could've grown cynical working in Washington but Obama's hope for change has survived and flourished; he knows how to get things done in a legislative setting, which has not seemed a high priority in Washington lately.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 03:48 pm
This is interesting. Anecdotal, not representative, and lots of other disclaimers, but interesting and a tiny bit heartening:

Quote:
I am a mid-forties Democratic leaning (occasionally Republican voting) college-educated working mom. This label would neatly apply to most of my friends. I am admittedly an Obama supporter, but not antagonist to Hillary. I've been surprised by the affinity amongst other similarly situated women out here to Hillary's candidacy. They have been generally excited about prospect of a female president, regardless of my arguments that Hillary does not represent a self-made women in the mold of say Margaret Thatcher. Many of my politically-minded girlfriends watched the nationally televised d, ebate from New Hampshire (apparently we don't go out on Saturday nights any more) and I could have told you that the backlash amongst women and the rallying to Hillary was in full force, even while the media missed it until the votes were in.

However, something funny has happened the last couple of days that was crystallized amongst those watching highlights of last night's debate. Around the office today, a number of women who were definitely in the Hillary camp are starting to feel a little sick to their stomach about the role Bill Clinton's is playing. One remarked that she thought she would be voting for the first women president, not a trojan horse for Bill Clinton's overactive ambition. Another friend I thought last week would definitely vote for Hillary labeled them the "Dynastic Duo" this morning and said she may switch to Obama. And finally, my best friend, who already sent in her absentee ballot says, she's got serious "buyer's remorse" saying she thought she had voted for the first women president, but now she's not so sure she's advanced or hurt women everywhere by voting for Hillary.

I think the media is missing the point like they did in NH. Bill's role as of late is undermining the very strength derived from her seeming historic candidacy. Suddenly it doesn't look so historic, but simply a repeat of history. Again, I'm speaking from the anecdotal perspective from women like myself here in So Cal, but this tactic seems to backfiring amongst my peer group in a significant way.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0108/Dissent_of_the_Day_Bills_role.html

(The bolded line is just one that I found particularly interesting/ well-stated.)

Thanks for the Dick Morris stuff, Bill, though it's scary as hell. I'm not sure about his last paragraph, the guilt thing.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 04:05 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Btw, I particularly enjoyed the factcheck.org demonstrating Hillary's obvious BS. I especially liked where they exposed Obama's fib about not liking a single payer system. I can see why he'd want to distance himself from that; but I like him more for liking it in the first place. :wink:


Bill, regarding Obama and the misquote about single payer system, have you seen this? Any thoughts after reading?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080123/ap_on_el_pr/health_care_fact_check_2
Great peice. After reading that one I would say it may not have even been a fib but an incomplete explanation. Either way; I think it is an extremely sleazy tactic because there's little doubt in my mind they'd both endorse a single payer system if they thought it realistic. At the end of the day; a single payer system is nothing more than a more progressive version of Universal Health Care. That's not something I would expect one Democrat to beat another over the head with.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 04:11 pm
From Soz's last piece:
Quote:
Dynastic Duo
Smile Heh. I do hope that lady is indicative of her peers... but I wish she were 10 or 20 years older...
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nimh
 
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Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 06:57 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
If Hillary loses South Carolina and the defeat serves to demonstrate Obama's ability to attract a bloc vote among black Democrats, the message will go out loud and clear to white voters that this is a racial fight. It's one thing for polls to show, as they now do, that Obama beats Hillary among African-Americans by better than 4-to-1 and Hillary carries whites by almost 2-to-1. But most people don't read the fine print on the polls. But if blacks deliver South Carolina to Obama, everybody will know that they are bloc-voting. That will trigger a massive white backlash against Obama and will drive white voters to Hillary Clinton.

First off, I cant believe we're going on Dick Morris now. Sullivan was one thing, but Morris - yuck.

But, OK, lemme push that out of the way. I gotta admit that, for just this one time, he seems to have a point.

There is, however, one potential snag that could get in the way of the Clintons' racial strategy. As of this moment, there's only a small chance of it happening - but it's a chance. And it would, if the media arent too much asleep at the wheel (a big if I admit), disrupt the narrative they're going for here. That's if Hillary doesnt just lose the black vote to Obama -- but loses the white vote to Edwards.

Throughout this month, Edwards has been polling 26-31% of the white vote in SC. Obama's been stuck at 17-22% since his post-Iowa bounce disappeared. But Hillary has been ahead since the same time - apparently the same white people who had gone to Obama after Iowa went (back?) to Hillary afterwards, cause she went up to 40+% and stayed there.

But there is one latest poll out, from Reuters/C-Span/Zogby, which dissents. It's the only poll that was at least partially done after the brawling debate, and not just does it shows Hillary's black support in SC down at an almost record-breaking low of 16%; it also suddenly shows her white support down to 33%. Which was just one point more than Edwards got.

So there is just this faint possibility that this is not just statistical noise, but that the brawl of the last week(s), culminating in the debate where Edwards seemed the wiser of the three battlers, has not just chased blacks towards Obama, but is starting to chase whites to Edwards too. Its hard to say, cause there's no previous Zogby poll to compare this one too, no remotely recent one anyhow. So who knows.

But if Hillary ends up losing SC not just because Obama got the black vote, but because Edwards trumped her among whites, surely that would change the narrative here?

Just idle speculation for now, of course... but it could be another way in which Edwards is actually helping Obama. Imagine how racialised a polarisation the race might yield if it was really just a pure one-to-one between Obama and Hillary, and he wasnt there to kind of muddy the waters (in a good way, I mean)?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2008 10:17 pm
Dick Morris might be on to something.

Bill Bill Clinton Accuses Obama Camp of Stirring Race Issue
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 01:45 am
I've long thought Dick Morris was on something, but I doubt he's on to anything at all but whatever sliver of controversy he can peddle on Faux news.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 01:52 am
Damn it Nimh. Why do you always have to make so damn much sense when it comes to these things? I so don't want to believe racism can sideline any candidate, let alone Obama, that I'm probably guilty of willful ignorance myself. (Shrugs)(sure wouldn't be the first time...)

Confused If Edwards is coming close to splitting the bigot vote, than I guess I may have to place a moratorium on calling him out for being... what you know I think he is... for a spell. As dangerous as the dynastic duo may be, bigotry's desire for a white male strikes me as worse. I reserve the right to change my mind...
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sozobe
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 09:01 am
The Associated Press fact-checks Obama's "present" votes:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gG60xsyt9Bdrdl6YUwhu0CYeBqTwD8UC4MA00
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 09:14 am
nimh wrote:
There is, however, one potential snag that could get in the way of the Clintons' racial strategy. As of this moment, there's only a small chance of it happening - but it's a chance. And it would, if the media arent too much asleep at the wheel (a big if I admit), disrupt the narrative they're going for here. That's if Hillary doesnt just lose the black vote to Obama -- but loses the white vote to Edwards.

Here we go...
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:08 am
The great speech Obama gave at Ebenezer Baptist last Sunday has been linked a few places now -- here's a transcript and a YouTube video for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/20/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_40.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf0x_TpDris

One thing that did jump out at me (I think I said "yes!" aloud when reading the transcript) was this:

Quote:
And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity.


I mention it because I'm seeing some coverage of it today, especially the "gay brothers and sisters" part.

That also goes with the "toughness" thing we were talking about on BPB's thread, but I'll keep it here for now.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:19 am
Eek:

Quote:
Meanwhile, a little to the east, former president Bill Clinton was also feeling a little distracted.

A CNN reporter, Jessica Yellin, asked Mr Clinton after a function in Charleston about comments from a former Democratic Party figure, who accused the Clinton campaign of focusing on race.

A testy Mr Clinton rounded on the journalist, saying that the public never raised the issue, only the press.

As Mr Clinton's staff tried to end things by turning up the music, he shouted out to the press: "One more story. Shame on you. Shame on you, you want another story … You wanna make this about words and name calling. I hate it."


http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/obama-woos-his-heartland/2008/01/24/1201157559804.html
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:32 am
sozobe wrote:
Eek:

Quote:
Meanwhile, a little to the east, former president Bill Clinton was also feeling a little distracted.

A CNN reporter, Jessica Yellin, asked Mr Clinton after a function in Charleston about comments from a former Democratic Party figure, who accused the Clinton campaign of focusing on race.

A testy Mr Clinton rounded on the journalist, saying that the public never raised the issue, only the press.

As Mr Clinton's staff tried to end things by turning up the music, he shouted out to the press: "One more story. Shame on you. Shame on you, you want another story … You wanna make this about words and name calling. I hate it."


http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/obama-woos-his-heartland/2008/01/24/1201157559804.html


Is this different then the last time this happened, with the CNN reporter?

Go Bill Go! Keep shouting at the press!

If they didn't want to be questioned about the racial strategy they are employing, they never should have brought it up in the first place!

Cycloptichorn
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:35 am
More about it:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/23/bill_clinton_unloads_on_press.html
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:51 am
Soz,

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/23/213221/309/346/442059

Quote:
Lorna Brett Howard, who apparently used to be the President of the Chicago chapter of NOW, has taped a pretty devastating account of why she recently switched from supporitng Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama.

The woman in the video is the past president of the Chicago chapter of NOW, has done extensive work with NARAL and Planned Parenthood, and currently works for some unnamed major pro-choice organization in New York (thus she has heavy connections in both IL and NY, appropriately enough).

She says that she was supporting Hillary up through Iowa and New Hampshire; in Iowa she personally witnessed Hillary's people lying flat-out to young women about Obama's record on choice issues, telling them that Obama was "weak" on choice issues.

She says she worked closely with Obama in Illinois while he was a state Senator in the '90's, and knows for a fact that he had a 100% record with every pro-choice organization there is.

She then says that even after the Iowa incidents, she stuck with Hillary through New Hampshire--where she saw the flyer being passed around by the Hillary camp once again accusing Obama of being "weak" on choice; this was the final straw for her, so she switched over to supporting Obama.

Her final statement was what really cuts to the core: She said that she's supporting Obama now because he's 100% pro-choice AND 100% honest.

Fade to black, and to a title card with the http://women.barackobama.com link.

UPDATE #2: Per request, here's the second video clip of Ms. Howard, in which she describes how Obama was the ONLY U.S. Senator to help out the pro-choice cause during the South Dakota abortion ban brouhaha:
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 11:35 am
Whoa.

Good to see that via Kos, too.

Interesting column by Gail Collins on what Bill's been doing -- here's the last half or so:

Quote:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/24/opinion/24collins.html
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:09 pm
This is not new -- it's from March 2007 -- but I came across it while researching something else and I really like it.

Eugene Robinson on the power of "both-and":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/12/AR2007031200983.html
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:11 pm
That idea - about Bill's predominance in her campaign foreshadowing how much he might influence her administration - really jumped out at me the first time I heard it the other day. It was one of those things that's right there, but I hadn't considered it. Who can deny that the man's ego blurs even his own judgement, and let run amok, could very well taint things writ large?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:12 pm
Beginning of an email from Michelle Obama, subject line "What we didn't expect":

Quote:
In the past week or two, another candidate's spouse has been getting an awful lot of attention.

We knew getting into this race that Barack would be competing with Senator Clinton and President Clinton at the same time.

We expected that Bill Clinton would tout his record from the nineties and talk about Hillary's role in his past success. That's a fair approach and a challenge we are prepared to face.

What we didn't expect, at least not from our fellow Democrats, are the win-at-all-costs tactics we've seen recently. We didn't expect misleading accusations that willfully distort Barack's record.

Barack Obama isn't relying on a former President of the United States to campaign for him.
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