1
   

Iowa doesn't matter

 
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 12:05 pm
okie wrote:
engineer, to put it simply, she is just not a likeable and trustworthy person. She is abrasive, not a pleasant person. This is a woman that has been known to terrorize her own staff and throw stuff at Bill. Everybody knows this, this is not news.

OK, but if you had to pick a Dem (not that you do), would you pick one that was closer to your political positions or one you would like to go drinking with? I'm independent now, but in my Republican days, I would always cheer for the Dem that seemed most Republican like. Not that any of them are candidates for a party conversion, but Clinton fits that bill from the current crop. It is very likely that a Dem will be the next President. Shouldn't you cheer for the one that leans your direction?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 12:20 pm
Thats tough to answer, engineer. It basically boils down to how all of the factors add up, just how trustworthy and a good person, slightly, extremely, or whatever, and just how far is the person's issues match or don't match with my personal beliefs. I dare say that nobody ever finds a perfect match on all points, but the closer we get the better. If I judge someone's character to be obviously very troubling or crooked, then even if I agree with their issues, and the opponent is wrong on all issues, I may not vote at all.

I think character is a first priority, and then look for the candidate that I agree with the most. Also some aspects of character are subjective and it is impossible to judge perfectly someone that you don't know personally. It is kind of a crapshoot in many ways, but looking back, I never considered voting for Clinton ever, based on character, from the start.

Right now, I like most of the Republicans and believe most of them are fairly decent in character, although who knows what we can learn as all of this shakes out. I admit to be skeptical of Huckabee because of his recent behavior, coupled with his record. I have never been a fan of McCain because I think he panders to the press, etc. and he is not a true conservative, but I am willing to take another look at the man if he emerges as the front runner. Right now, I lean to Romney, but I don't know if he can emerge past the level of support he has now. Obama is the only likeable Democrat I see, but I agree with hardly any of his politics and I doubt he has the experience or leadership qualities. I am also suspicious of what he is really about, I don't know really what he is about.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 01:11 pm
okie wrote:
I think character is a first priority, and then look for the candidate that I agree with the most. Also some aspects of character are subjective and it is impossible to judge perfectly someone that you don't know personally. It is kind of a crapshoot in many ways, but looking back, I never considered voting for Clinton ever, based on character, from the start.


An election is a classic catch-22. You have nothing to gain by supporting a candidate who supports your views if that candidate has no personal integrity or character because you cannot trust that candidate to advance your goals should he make into public office. But supporting a trust-worthy candidate who does not support your views will effectively see the country move away from your goals.

If there is no trust-worthy candidate who supports your views and will fight for what you want, I don't see any purpose in voting. At least that way you won't personally share any of the blame for any damage that the winning candidate manages to do.

Quote:
Right now, I like most of the Republicans and believe most of them are fairly decent in character,


How can you say this about Romney, a man who changes his mind about policy issues based on whichever election he is trying to win at the moment, or Giuliani who is on his 2nd or 3rd wife? One is a political opportunist and the other is a philandering scumbag. What character can either of them have?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 01:39 pm
flaja wrote:
okie wrote:
I think character is a first priority, and then look for the candidate that I agree with the most. Also some aspects of character are subjective and it is impossible to judge perfectly someone that you don't know personally. It is kind of a crapshoot in many ways, but looking back, I never considered voting for Clinton ever, based on character, from the start.


An election is a classic catch-22. You have nothing to gain by supporting a candidate who supports your views if that candidate has no personal integrity or character because you cannot trust that candidate to advance your goals should he make into public office. But supporting a trust-worthy candidate who does not support your views will effectively see the country move away from your goals.

If there is no trust-worthy candidate who supports your views and will fight for what you want, I don't see any purpose in voting. At least that way you won't personally share any of the blame for any damage that the winning candidate manages to do.

I agree with all of that.

Quote:
Quote:
Right now, I like most of the Republicans and believe most of them are fairly decent in character,


How can you say this about Romney, a man who changes his mind about policy issues based on whichever election he is trying to win at the moment, or Giuliani who is on his 2nd or 3rd wife? One is a political opportunist and the other is a philandering scumbag. What character can either of them have?

I admit to basing my opinion of Romney almost entirely upon his debate answers and explanations of issues. He makes the most sense. If a man changes his mind over a period of years, that is one thing, if he changes overnight, then that is a problem, I'm still looking at this issue with Romney. I am not a big supporter of Giuliani at all, as he is near the bottom of my list of Republicans. Second or third marriages are not unusual anymore, so a candidate is not disqualified on that basis, but it depends upon the circumstances of those marriages. I do care about personal character, and marriages enter into that, but it is not a litmus test.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 02:14 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Iowa matters if only because it prolongs the horse race the media and a large segment of the population craves... just as they want Brittney Spears to remain in front of the news. We have a group rubbernecking mentality here in the good ol' USA and probably in the wqhole world. It's our nature.

If Huckabee had lost last night he'd pretty much be history as would Obama, and New Hampshire would be of only half the interest it will generate now. Bad for ratings.

Everything matters because everything has the potential to generate revenue.
I can ill imagine, a more meaningless post.

You really should consider thinking up a point before beginning to type, let alone hitting Submit.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 03:38 pm
piss off bill.... you and snood sleeping together or something?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 03:43 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
piss off bill.... you and snood sleeping together or something?
That has what to do with your race-needling nonsense on that threat and utter lack of a point on this one?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 03:45 pm
so you don't deny it?

Here's an idea... since you're so obvioulsy the pious and better man.... why not ignore me? It'll absolutely drive me mad with frustration since I care so much about you and your approval.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 04:01 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
so you don't deny it?
Stunning brilliance... Rolling Eyes

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Here's an idea... since you're so obvioulsy the pious and better man.... why not ignore me? It'll absolutely drive me mad with frustration since I care so much about you and your approval.
I considered that idea, and may return to it if you continue down this road. Your irrelevant rambling used to at least be funny at times; but there's nothing funny about needling a man's race sensitivities... nor posting meaningless, pointless drivel. Here's another idea... If you must persist in allowing your inner unresolved anger to erupt, at least try to find something worthy of ranting about (animosity towards Bush has served you well in the past...)
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 04:04 pm
can't do it can you. Laughing
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 05:03 pm
okie wrote:
I admit to basing my opinion of Romney almost entirely upon his debate answers and explanations of issues. He makes the most sense. If a man changes his mind over a period of years, that is one thing, if he changes overnight, then that is a problem, I'm still looking at this issue with Romney.


Romney claims to be pro-life now that he is a candidate for the GOP presidential nomination. But Romney was pro-abortion while he was governor of Massachusetts- which wasn't all that long ago.

Quote:
I am not a big supporter of Giuliani at all, as he is near the bottom of my list of Republicans. Second or third marriages are not unusual anymore, so a candidate is not disqualified on that basis, but it depends upon the circumstances of those marriages.


From what I hear Giuliani was sleeping with his current wife before he was divorced from his last wife. The man won't stay faithful to the woman he's married to, so how can we trust him to be faithful to the country if he becomes president?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 06:11 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Ebrown's ignored opening post is spot on. Ask Joe Biden if Iowa matters...

Anyone who thinks Obama or McCain is unelectable... is wrong. Both have potential to earn the most important vote there is (mine). (Figuratively, I mean because I'm independent.) Frankly; use of the word unelectable is pretty foolish when you consider where Bush's popularity sat, before John Kerry was chosen.

Nice assessment Finn. Well done.


Thanks Bill, Nice to see you back.

For some time now I have utterly dismissed Obama's chance of getting the nomination. I was mistaken, not because he won in Iowa, but because Hilary finished third.

If he had squeaked past Clinton, my opinion would not have changed much. I still don't think he will win the nomination but his chances are better than I figured.

Perhaps Clinton losing the mantle of inevitability will be the best thing that ever happened to her. Iowa Caucus participants have to be the personification of the Party Base. I suspect that they may have turned from Hillary because she had already started to move to the right in anticipation of the general election. Watch now for her to veer Left. She has a very savvy political machine behind her, and virtually no scruples.

Also watch for her campaign to go for Obama's throat. She certainly will not give up without a fight.

Obama has not really stumbled in terms of the primaries. The sort of ridiculous comments he has made about having tea with enemy tyrants, and checking for bandages should another 9-11 happen, will hurt him if he gets the nomination, but they didn't hurt him in terms of the people whose approval he is currently seeking. One thing we can be sure of is that, before this is all over, he will trip and fall (they all do). We need to see how he reacts.

I'm sure this is redundant, but the Obama's win in Iowa is great news for Repubs. Now Hillary needs to woo The Base and so rather than having any Dem candidates prepping themselves as moderate, they will all rage to the Left --- including Hil.

On the other hand, Huckabee's winning will not drive Rudy or McCain into the arms of the social conservatives (any more than they have already done so).

Only Mitt is so pandering to The Base that it would hurt him in the general election. Perhaps it's hurting him already.

Rudy and McCain can win the primaries without hurting their chances in the general election.

It's hard to imagine Clinton or Obama winning the general election, unless Republicans nominate Huckabee, Rommney, or Paul.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 06:17 pm
Quote:

Also watch for her campaign to go for Obama's throat. She certainly will not give up without a fight.


What are they going to do, in order to go for the throat? What are they going to attack him on that he hasn't already been attacked on? Will negativity play well?

Seems like a tough row to hoe for Hillary in the next few days. Weekend, too, so there's not much news cycle to exploit for changed message.

Rudy has an extremely small chance of winning anything. I'm not sure you've kept track of his falling poll numbers, but they are bad.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 07:13 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Thanks Bill, Nice to see you back.
Thanks.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It's hard to imagine Clinton or Obama winning the general election, unless Republicans nominate Huckabee, Rommney, or Paul.
It's hard for me to imagine Obama not winning against anyone not named Giuliani or McCain.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 07:26 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
For some time now I have utterly dismissed Obama's chance of getting the nomination. I was mistaken, not because he won in Iowa, but because Hilary finished third.


I would still venture that Hillary will get the Democrat nomination for the shear fact that Bill likely still controls the Democrat Party machinery. I also don't see Obama ever getting a majority of the black vote because so many blacks think he is acting too white. White liberals may vote for a black candidate just to say they are willing to vote for a black candidate. But blacks are not going to vote for a candidate just because he is black. If they were so willing Jesse Jackson would have been on the Democrat Party ticket in 1984 or 1988.

Quote:
Also watch for her campaign to go for Obama's throat. She certainly will not give up without a fight.


At this point she likely would have nothing to lose.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 07:28 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Seems like a tough row to hoe for Hillary in the next few days.


Do you mean the garden tool, or are you speaking Ebonics?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 07:41 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Thanks Bill, Nice to see you back.
Thanks.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It's hard to imagine Clinton or Obama winning the general election, unless Republicans nominate Huckabee, Rommney, or Paul.
It's hard for me to imagine Obama not winning against anyone not named Giuliani or McCain.


Maybe Thompson. Tough not to like the guy.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:02 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Maybe Thompson. Tough not to like the guy.


Ever heard of the S&L crisis? Thompson was the main industry lobbyist behind the laws that deregulated the industry thus allowing the crisis to happen.

He also left his first wife and is now married to a woman young enough to be his daughter.

He was also one of the 10 Republican senators that voted to acquit Clinton in the impeachment trial.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:12 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Also watch for her campaign to go for Obama's throat. She certainly will not give up without a fight.


What are they going to do, in order to go for the throat? What are they going to attack him on that he hasn't already been attacked on? Will negativity play well?

Seems like a tough row to hoe for Hillary in the next few days. Weekend, too, so there's not much news cycle to exploit for changed message.

Rudy has an extremely small chance of winning anything. I'm not sure you've kept track of his falling poll numbers, but they are bad.

Cycloptichorn


Everyone asked claims to hate negative ads, but the simple truth is they work.

It can be a problem if a candidate's name becomes synonymous with negative ads --- which could be happening to Mitt --- but otherwise it's (unfortunately) smart campaigning.

As for Hilary finding other things with which to attack Obama, just you wait and see.

The Clintons have cried foul every time they have been attacked but they are political dobermans.

Obama was smart to confess to drug use right off the bat, but there is far less identification, among the populace, with coke users than pot tokers. There is fertile ground to plow on this score.

Obama seems to a be a fairly well adjusted, decent guy. As such he probably has not made a crusade out of hiding all of his indiscretions. If he has them (and who does not?) there's a good chance they will come out. He has the backing of the establishment media at present but they don't fear him the way they fear Hilary. Clinton has already been found out for leaking items through the Grunge Report. If something really juicy is surfaced by Grunge, the rest of the Media will have to go with it. As much as they might like Obama, they like ratings more.

If the Clinton campaign was capable of dumpster diving after Obama's K-class records, there is no limits to the energy it will invest in digging up dirt. I would be amazed to learn that all that can be revealed about Obama has been revealed.

I'm not a Rudy supporter, but any drop he is experiencing in the polls has more to do with the fact that he has been AWOL of late, than any substantive failing on his part. Out of sight, out of mind.

We'll see more of Rudy in New Hampshire and South Carolina, but the fate of his run for office will not be revealed until we come to primaries in states like Florida and New York. It's quite possible that the field will pass him by by then, but obviously his strategy figures that either they will not or that he can make a comeback. Time will tell. It's hard to imagine Huckabee leaving him in the dust. Romney might have, but the Iowa results crimped that plan.

A key to the race is McCain's performance in NH. He almost has to win. Perhaps remaining a hair breadth away from first place will suffice, but I doubt it. If he wins, look out.

For National Review Conservatives (with whom I usually agree) McCain represents a stick up their asses. He refuses to tow the line on litmus test issues --- most of which (as they are with Liberals) are silly. E.g. limitations on campaign financing are really a major blow against free speech? I don't think so.

Populist candidates, whether from the Left or the Right, rarely find traction within a more general audience. Huckabee is running what is essentially a populist campaign, underscored by some measure of social conservatism.

Despite the all too prevalent opinion of Conservatives on A2K, we are not, at all, a majority of bible thumpers. Huckabee can tap into those who are, but they are his only entre to the conservative base. Libertarians, small government advocates, and foreign policy hawks are not going to swoon before him.

Obviously anything can happen in politics, but I seriously doubt Huckabee will be the nominee.

Romney is not out of the picture yet and neither is Thompson, but right now it looks good for Rudy and McCain.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:20 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Thanks Bill, Nice to see you back.
Thanks.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It's hard to imagine Clinton or Obama winning the general election, unless Republicans nominate Huckabee, Rommney, or Paul.
It's hard for me to imagine Obama not winning against anyone not named Giuliani or McCain.


Maybe Thompson. Tough not to like the guy.


Factually, many of us don't find it tough at all.
0 Replies
 
 

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