The KKK are right

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I'm sorry for the confusion, I meant
"Atheists don't kill in the name of atheism".

Ah. Fair enough that you make the statement - but the statement itself is unfair to religion. All mass killings are done in the name of a belief, and all mass killings are done in the name of power.

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Maybe I used the wrong words. I was just trying to say that I can't respond to that statement, I can't reject it, I can't accept it, I can't debate against it, I can't discuss it.

Sounds like you are frustrated. May I ask - Is it possible for you to accept that another can accept the existence of a God?

To my way of thinking, there's nothing wrong in believing in the existance of a God...though certain aspects of the other stuff that often goes with it that can be problematic.

Religion is true for the common, false for the wise, and a tool for the leaders.

Ah, but remove religion and you remove a large number of mass killings. In fact, most mass killings are done in the name of religion, instead of other beliefs and ideologies.

Well I do find it frustrating. I come here, not only to change, but to be changed.

When I came here, I was a Christian, then switched through atheism, buddhism, agnosticism, back to Christianity, and finally settled on atheism. I have reviewed my beliefs over and over, and if they're not changing at the moment, it's because they are extremely refined, not because I refuse to change.

Some people come here "knowing" that God exists - they try to change others, or at least argue their case, while not allowing their own thoughts to be refined.

I don't mind people believing in God, it's thinking that they know exactly how the universe and all creation works, down to the extremely fine points, that bothers me.

Paul told Philemon to treat Onesimus as a brother, as he himself would want to be treated. This is revolutionary teaching

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Paul told Philemon to treat Onesimus as a brother, as he himself would want to be treated. This is revolutionary teaching

xingu, treating one's slave kindly and treating one's slave as a brother are two different things. What Paul instructed of Onesimus was revolutionary because he pretty much ordered (by inspiration of God) that Onesimus free philemon. Sure some slaves were freed by romans and even adopted into households, but this was not a prevelant practice.

"The Staunton Spectator found a religious message in slavery as the nation talked of John Brown. "In one sense no one, white or black, is free in this world," the paper observed. God had a plan, and God had put slavery in America. Accordingly there is only one Christian response to the burden that slavery put upon both slave and master: "When the man, whatever his complexion, recognizes the fact that his lot is ordained of God, and cheerfully acquiesces, he becomes a free man in the only true sense." John Brown, refusing to acquiesce, had proven himself not only a traitor but also a heretic, a blasphemer who dared speak for God."

"In a 1609 sermon blessing the Virginia colony, the Rev. Robert Gray asked a pointed question: 'The first objection is, by what right or warrant we can enter into the land of these Savages, take away their rightful inheritance from them, and plant ourselves in their places, being unwronged or unprovoked by them?' He answered, to the complete satisfaction of the promoters, that savages had no right to keep any land that they did not exploit to its fullest potential. Overlooking the many native villages and extensive fields of maize, Captain John Smith described Virginia as 'overgrowne with trees and weedes, being a plaine wilderness as God first made it.' The English insisted God required them to improve the wilderness into productive farmland, subduing the Indians in the process."

"Frustrated, the English made a violent and terrifying examples of resisting Indians. In August 1610, Captain George Percy surprised and attacked a Paspahegh village, killing at least sixty-five inhabitants and destroying with fire their homes and fields of corn. Taking prisoner the wife and children of the local chieftain, the colonist headed back to Jamestown by boat. En route, as a sport, they threw the children overboard and shot them in the water as they tried to swim to shore. Back in Jamestown the governor rebuked the captain, not for his brutality, but instead for sparing the woman's life. The governor promptly had her executed, run through with a sword. The raid seems peculiarly perverse as well as ruthless. Why would starving colonist burn a field of growing corn? The colony's leaders believed that they could get far more corn from the other Indians by making one especially horrifying example of those who fail to obey English orders."

And yes many people claimed slavery was Gods will and tried to twist scripture to enslave blacks, but that doesn't make it right

real life,
Read. I am not ignoring the opposite side, only placing the relevance on the fact that a pro-slavery side exists and existed.

And I am not an expert on the topic, but I am preeeeeetty sure that the KKK are primary a Christian group, as I have said before. Burning cross, using the Bible as their main weapon to justify slavery and the inferiority of blacks etc.

And even if you are right, they still use religion as a tool......

vikorr,
And I would refer to you religious terrorism, sacrifices, witch burning, execution due to ridiculous things (a man in Palestine, I think, was recently executed for saying that Muhammad was sexist), religious wars, use of religion as a tool (Hitler, while an atheist (who didn't war in the name of atheism), used Christianity as a justification for the rest of Germany) etc not to mention the damage done to an enormous number of people's sense and logic.

Ah, but remove religion and you remove a large number of mass killings. In fact, most mass killings are done in the name of religion, instead of other beliefs and ideologies.

I'm glad to see you agree with me on many fields.

But in arguing your side and succeeding, you are inevitably changing people.

xingu as i have stated with you before it's exceedingly diffucult to debate with you if you refuse to study the scriptures you are given. Paul didn't tell Philemon to just treat Onesimus "humanly". He said to treat him as a brother, as he would wish to be treated. You don't enslave your brother or wish to be enslaved yourself. Go back and read Philemon. And yes many people claimed slavery was Gods will and tried to twist scripture to enslave blacks, but that doesn't make it right. I think it was already pointed out to you that abolisionists (who were christians) fought against slavery because they felt it was not Christlike. There were many pastors and other christians who spoke against slavery. Here are a few and you can look up more if you like:
Rev. George B. Cheever, D.D, wrote sermon "God Against Slavery
and the Freedom and Duty of the Pulpit To Rebuke It, As a Sin against God." 1857
Harriet Beecher Stowe (abolitionist and christian)

I do credit the Bible for both sides, but I am saying that surely it should have only produced one side. Understand?

aperson wrote:

I do credit the Bible for both sides, but I am saying that surely it should have only produced one side. Understand?

No you don't .

Your rant was about how 'the Bible spawned (i.e. caused) the KKK'.

No mention of abolitionists.

Just implied causality, as if a book can 'force' people to do something.

Your rants are simply the parroting of other atheists and agnostics who are able to draw attention to themselves.

Perhaps you consider yourself to sound intelligent when you echo their sentiments without the trace of an original thought.

But that's not how you appear to others.

If the Bible can 'cause' the KKK, then it can 'cause' the abolitionist movement.

But in reality, people make choices and carry them out of their own free will.

There will always be those who do evil and try to appear righteous. They will misuse and mislead by any means[/i] that is convenient.

When speaking to the religious, they will try to appear religious.

When speaking to a businessman, they will tell him that their actions are in his financial interest.

When speaking to a patriot, they will say that their policies are for the good of the country.

As for parroting, there would be fewer parrots if the priests would address the kinds of dangers of the christian beliefs and how people will prey upon their religious convictions. Christian's are often taught about how to be strong, they are rarely forced to address the dangers that exist in a candid manor. Addressin such issues as church group-think etc.

kate4christ03 wrote:

xingu as i have stated with you before it's exceedingly diffucult to debate with you if you refuse to study the scriptures you are given. Paul didn't tell Philemon to just treat Onesimus "humanly". He said to treat him as a brother, as he would wish to be treated. You don't enslave your brother or wish to be enslaved yourself. Go back and read Philemon. And yes many people claimed slavery was Gods will and tried to twist scripture to enslave blacks, but that doesn't make it right. I think it was already pointed out to you that abolisionists (who were christians) fought against slavery because they felt it was not Christlike. There were many pastors and other christians who spoke against slavery. Here are a few and you can look up more if you like:
Rev. George B. Cheever, D.D, wrote sermon "God Against Slavery
and the Freedom and Duty of the Pulpit To Rebuke It, As a Sin against God." 1857
Harriet Beecher Stowe (abolitionist and christian)

Who was speaking here: "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. " ?

Does God say anywhere in the bible that slavery was wrong?

aperson wrote:

I do credit the Bible for both sides, but I am saying that surely it should have only produced one side. Understand?

No you don't .

Your rant was about how 'the Bible spawned (i.e. caused) the KKK'.

No mention of abolitionists.

Just implied causality, as if a book can 'force' people to do something.

Your rants are simply the parroting of other atheists and agnostics who are able to draw attention to themselves.

Perhaps you consider yourself to sound intelligent when you echo their sentiments without the trace of an original thought.

But that's not how you appear to others.

If the Bible can 'cause' the KKK, then it can 'cause' the abolitionist movement.

But in reality, people make choices and carry them out of their own free will.

There will always be those who do evil and try to appear righteous. They will misuse and mislead by any means[/i] that is convenient.

When speaking to the religious, they will try to appear religious.

When speaking to a businessman, they will tell him that their actions are in his financial interest.

When speaking to a patriot, they will say that their policies are for the good of the country.

President Bush Agrees to Sell Military Equipment to Saudi Arabia
Category: J.W.N. Exclusives

I am outraged and you should be also. President Bush is in Saudi Arabia. He has just agreed to sell the Saudis $20 billion worth of military equipment. This is the same country that refused to recognize Israel's right to exist; the same country that will not allow one Jew to set foot on its soil; the same country that birthed the 9/11 suicide bombers; the same country that refuses a church to exist and will cut the heads off any Christian who leads a Muslim to Christ - the Saudis do this all the time - as the world sleeps. This is the same country that is sending suicide bombers into Iraq to kill our troops and the same country that is attempting to destroy the U.S. economy with One-Hundred-Dollar barrel oil. This is blackmail!

HATE!!

I was completely outraged when I heard that Ehud Olmert, whom I have known for 26 years, stood next to President Bush and declared that he would work to fulfill the final status solution to the Road Map to Peace. In essence, this means the division of Jerusalem (with all Christian Holy Sites being under Islamic rule of law) and Judea and Samaria turned over to the Palestinians.

A national Save Jerusalem Campaign has been launched. Presently over 120,000 have signed the petition. The goal is to have one million signatures of the petition to present to President Bush. This petition will also be sent to Ehud Olmert.

You can add your name to the Presidential Petition by voting now.

This is outrageous. These are terrorist organizations that will kill a Jew in a second if they make a wrong turn on the road and will shoot a Christian Palestinian in the head for saying nice things about Jews.

ANGER!!

As this absurd ceremony was going on, they were singing; they had music playing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." The only rainbow that I believe in is the rainbow that God put in the sky when He made the Covenant in the time of Noah that He would not destroy the world again by water with a flood.

God's word says I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee. America must not touch prophecy. The nation of Israel was born by a royal land grant given by God Almighty. It was birthed before there was a United States or a United Nations. All nations were only pagan nations at that time.

Do you realize that the U.S. Government is shuttling around with almost a dozen Arab states that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and, in fact, funding terrorists to kill Jews? It's outrageous!

Please, get one friend today to sign the Save Jerusalem Petition. This will double the number. Our ultimate goal is one million, but our goal right now is to reach 200,000.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the State Department is going to push this through if we remain silent. If it happens, God's hand of protection will be lifted from our country in a way that we couldn't possibly have imagined. I will not allow that to happen. I will do everything in my power to resist that.

FEAR!!

I'm asking for everyone ask just one friend today to sign the Petition.