aperson
 
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 08:32 pm
Don't worry, I'm not a member. I just remember seeing footage of a member of the KKK (who are mainly white trash) saying, "We are the only ones who have read this [brandishing a Bible in a threatening manner]. The Bible was written for whites."

You know what scares me? He was right.

Most of the Old Testament chapters are xenophobic and encourage the eradication of "unpure" races (not to mention other disturbing ideals such as the inferiority of women).

"Oh, the Old Testament is purely metaphorical." I can hear you saying it already. Even if the events in the Bible didn't happen, what kind of metaphors are those tales suppose to be? I can't think of any logical ones, apart from "punish every crime with death, abuse your wife (the Bible is written purely for men as well), kill homosexuals, destoy anybody who isn't your religion."

Atheists, forget theological arguments. Just open the Bible. All the ammunition you need is there.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 09:01 pm
God did not punish people because of their race. He punished them for their being evil and worshipping idols, etc.

With God there is no Greek, Jew, Gentile, white, black, etc. God is no respector of persons.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 10:40 pm
When you think of the part of the world that the old testament talks about....how many whites do you think were there?
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curtis73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 01:02 am
Forget the old testament... do you think Jesus was white? Or how about matthew, mark, luke, and john?

They most likely looked more like Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein than some pasty white north american.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 03:49 am
Thinking the bible was written for whites is based on a false assumption, is it not?

Quote:
With God there is no Greek, Jew, Gentile, white, black, etc. God is no respector of persons.


Not really true when Jews were his chosen people. People from other races could become Jews though.

Quote:
God did not punish people because of their race. He punished them for their being evil and worshipping idols, etc.

Like the kids the bears ripped to shreds for calling Elijah an old baldy? Or the Canaanites who wouldn't leave in the face of an invading force? Seems God thought every last one of them was evil, children included, but the Hebrews didn't quite agree...or forgot his views maybe. The Evil of Lots wife seems to be missing her home, which happened to coinside with the evil of daring to disobey a command 'don't look back'. Of course David, on the other hand, seems to have ended up blessed and honoured for killing a man so he could sleep with said mans wife. And Solomon was equally blessed, keeping hundreds of wives and concubines, apparently an evil Sin later on.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 11:07 am
What is right or wrong in man's eyes is one thing. What is right or wrong in God's eyes is another. He is the Creator. He made everything. He has the right to do whatever He wants. However, God always provides a way out of the punishment.

Sure lots of stories in the Old Testament are pretty horrifying. I cannot disagree with that. But I cannot begin to understand all the ways of God. Some things are beyond a human's understanding.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 11:13 am
And some ways of God are actually the ways of man projected onto God for justification.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 11:57 am
I've got an extremely slow connection here. I'll get back to this pathetic strawman tomorrow.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 12:42 pm
Quote:
What is right or wrong in man's eyes is one thing. What is right or wrong in God's eyes is another.


Yet our only point of reference is our conscience. And our conscience says that many of these things were evil.

Our conscience says there is no love (as claimed of God in the new testament) in many of these actions, yet it is consistent with the Old testaments claim that God is a God to be feared. The stories are also consistent with a people trying to justify their actions, or the priesthood trying to control the population (depending on which story one is reading)

Quote:
He is the Creator. He made everything. He has the right to do whatever He wants. However,


A fair enough belief.

Quote:
God always provides a way out of the punishment.


I don't think we read the same stories I mentioned above.

Quote:
Sure lots of stories in the Old Testament are pretty horrifying. I cannot disagree with that. But I cannot begin to understand all the ways of God. Some things are beyond a human's understanding.


We only have our own conscience. Unless you are going to argue that our conscience has become corrupted too...which would be a rather interesting argument.

We can only look at things through human eyes and with a human understanding, that is rather true. So if we see something that is evil, yet attempt to justify the evil as being incomprehensible love...
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 04:31 pm
Ok, let me clear up something here: the Bible was not written for whites, it was written for Jews, but whoever it is was written for, it is extremely xenophobic and genocidal.

Arella Mae,
You make me sick. "Some things are just beyond human understanding." You are asking us, and yourself, to just cast aside all reason, logic and knowledge, and just accept that "Some things are just beyond human understanding." This is typical of theists. "Trust in God." It's pathetic. Religion encourages us to savour our ignorance. Religion says, "Don't try to discover new things [ahem, the origins of the Bible] just trust in God. Rejoice in your ignorance, for that is where God resides." You are spiritually blind, like so many others. Religion has infected your mind, clouded your reason. Please do not post to me again, for no amount of reason will get through to you, for you "know" God exists and is right. The same goes for anyone else with similar views.

Thank you vikorr. You, at least, have clear vision.

No one has yet provide a sufficient explanation as to why the Bible is such a disturbing book. You just dismiss it and change the topic. As I have said before, the Bible can't be a metaphor. Neither can it be the literal truth. That only leaves one option.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 04:57 pm
When discussing such matters uneducated "religious" people suffer acute bouts of tunnel vision. A few years ago there was a political march downtown in favor of "English Only." One sign even said "If it was good enough for Christ it's good enough for me."
I wanted to go the next day--it was a three-day affair--with a sign saying "Aramaic Only: If it was good enough for Christ it's good enough for me."
But I chickened out.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 06:49 pm
Hehe this was in America, I assume?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 11:06 pm
Yes, in the southwest.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Dec, 2007 11:27 pm
Hi Aperson,

If I may clarify something - While I believe the bible is inconsistent, and if God does exist, then it's not a true reflection of him/her/it...I have no true problem with Arella Mae's position / belief in christianity (nor christianity in general). I don't agree with many aspects of the bible, but I don't mind others choosing to believe in it.

And while I can understand the frustration of receiving an answer like "We can't hope to understand God" from people with christian beliefs, it does disturb me when people resort to personal attacks during the expression of their 'disagreement'.

Merry Christmas.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 07:56 am
aperson wrote:
Ok, let me clear up something here: the Bible was not written for whites, it was written for Jews, but whoever it is was written for, it is extremely xenophobic and genocidal.


You now deviate from your original post. What was and is your point?

Quote:
Arella Mae,
You make me sick. "Some things are just beyond human understanding." You are asking us, and yourself, to just cast aside all reason, logic and knowledge, and just accept that "Some things are just beyond human understanding." This is typical of theists. "Trust in God." It's pathetic. Religion encourages us to savour our ignorance. Religion says, "Don't try to discover new things [ahem, the origins of the Bible] just trust in God. Rejoice in your ignorance, for that is where God resides." You are spiritually blind, like so many others. Religion has infected your mind, clouded your reason. Please do not post to me again, for no amount of reason will get through to you, for you "know" God exists and is right. The same goes for anyone else with similar views.


You are most unfair and even arrogant here. I don't see where Arella Mae was expecting you or anybody else to do anything. She was stating her belief. A belief that she has every right to have, regardless of what you may or may not think. How could anybody expect one who only criticizes and discards anybody elses ideas to understand this.

Why do you think that what you have is reason? What makes you better than anybody else? You don't want any posts unless they agree with you (based on your last line above. Narrowmindedness like this is not a good thing for anybody.

Quote:
Thank you vikorr. You, at least, have clear vision.


Regarless of whether I agree with what vikorr wrote or not....Who are you to decide whether this is clear vision? What makes you think you have all of the answers?

Quote:
No one has yet provide a sufficient explanation as to why the Bible is such a disturbing book. You just dismiss it and change the topic. As I have said before, the Bible can't be a metaphor. Neither can it be the literal truth. That only leaves one option.


Why is it a disturbing book? Why can't it be a metaphor? Why can't it be the truth? What is the only option that is left? Again, you wouldn't know the answer if you saw it. Actually, nobody would have the definitive answer.
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curtis73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 10:14 am
JLNobody wrote:
When discussing such matters uneducated "religious" people suffer acute bouts of tunnel vision. A few years ago there was a political march downtown in favor of "English Only." One sign even said "If it was good enough for Christ it's good enough for me."
I wanted to go the next day--it was a three-day affair--with a sign saying "Aramaic Only: If it was good enough for Christ it's good enough for me."
But I chickened out.


I have to laugh... there is a bumper sticker campaign that is big in the midwest. The stickers say, "Jesus, God's gift to America." People bought them by the hundreds because at first glance it sounds both patriotic and religious. Instead, its elitist, blind, and complete blasphemy by christian's rules.

Its pretty sad when their ignorance not only includes their view of the "outside," but they have even more ignorance of themselves.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 12:38 pm
Curtis,

How is it blasphemous? Blasphemy is attributing to satan something that God does.

Jesus accused the Pharisees of blasphemy because they said Beelzebub was the one casting out demons and not Jesus.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 04:27 pm
People seem to have taken a lot of offence from my comment on Arella Mae. I do not apologize. I am frustrated and weary of people like her. You know why? If you provided complete and logical proof of the non-existence of God, they wouldn't budge. You know why? In their infected minds, they have it all worked out. God exists. Full-stop. Period. End of discussion. They will ask us to cast aside all logic and reason and just accept that "God works in mysterious ways" and that we should "Trust in God". I am not sorry for "Stating my belief. A belief that I have every right to have, regardless of what you may or may not think." as Intrepid so aptly puts it.

I am sure that Intrepid will not put up with my use of his quote against him, because he was applying it to religious belief. While I am here, I want to say something about this. We can argue against someone's political belief, someone's view on abortion, on terrorism, on the death sentence, on homosexuality, but we have to respect someone's religious belief, no matter how arrogant, blind, ignorant, stupid or destructive. This I find fully frustrating. We can argue all else, but we cannot touch someone's religious belief. We have to respect it. Well I will not conform to this taboo, and if you think me arrogant and "narrowminded" (I'm the "narrowminded" one?), then so be it.

That is my response. vikorr, I hope at least you can see the reasoning.

JLNobody,
America is, arguably, the most ignorant developed country in the world. Their stupidity continues to amaze me.

Intrepid,
It can't be a metaphor because the morals in it are terrible, as I have already stated. Neither can it be the literal truth, for obvious reasons. I cannot think of another option apart from that it is false. Again, please don't just dismiss this saying that "nobody would have the definitive answer."
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 04:50 pm
JLN wrote:
A few years ago there was a political march downtown in favor of "English Only." One sign even said "If it was good enough for Christ it's good enough for me."


Ok, that made me laugh. Laughing

There was a similar reaction that was common here in norway around one hundred years ago, when the bible was being adapted to the more modern language in which it is written today.

A lot of people objected to this adaptation on the basis that they'd rather have the bible the way jesus talked... Rolling Eyes

I have to admit, I sometimes wonder if all humans really are the same species...
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 05:42 pm
I merely stated my beliefs. I did not even imply that you MUST accept them or agree with them. And by the way aperson you don't make me sick because you have differing beliefs.

However; you do offend me because you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of. You maintain you are right and I am wrong and I am "infected" because of what I believe.

So, why is it ok for you to "push" your beliefs on me by using such derogatory words? Whether you believe in God or not is none of my business. But you judge me all sorts of things and you don't even know me. I am different than you because I have a belief that you don't. You judged me. I did not nor will I judge you.
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