The KKK are right

Cyracuz wrote:

Arella Mae and Intrepid.

I am just curious. If you are presented with facts about something, provided by modern science and philosophy, arguments that can be so thoroughly backed and proven that there is no reason to doubt it, I am pretty sure you will accept it.

For instance, to make it simple, if you are told that you will die if you jump off a tall building, I am pretty sure you will believe it.

But when the facts presented, provided by science and philosophy, arguments that can be so thoroughly backed that there is no reason to doubt it... If these facts show that what you believe cannot be, how can you persist in believing it?

How can you become insulted when someone points out the idiocy of doing it, when there is no other word to describe what you are doing?

The fact is, such evidence exists. And if you cannot understand it, isn't that a matter of your own capacity to reason?

I do not understand quantum mechanics, for instance. I do not possess the intellect and mathematical skill to do so, and I have no trouble accepting it.
But I do possess the intellect to understand the nature of perception and existence to such a degree that I see that a sentient, personified god is an impossibility. You, apparently, do not.

You talk as though those of faith are idiots. This is simply not true. You will find that there are even scientists and other learned people who have faith in God. Therefore, this argument is moot.

Also, since you address this post to me and Arella Mae.... it is evident that you put the two of us into a category. A category that you think is not up to your standard. We have made different posts, but rather than reply to us individually, you choose to lump us together. That says something, doesn't it?

In your opinion, God does not exist because you have no proof. That does not make it so. It only means that you choose not to believe because it cannot be proven to you. How do you know that you possess this intellect to understand the nature of perception? How can you prove that God does not exist? Simply because your intellect tells you so? Intellect also said that the earth is flat; man could never get to the moon; flight was impossible; man could not travel under the seas, etc. etc. These were all proven wrong. It is quite possible that you will be proven wrong some day.

It is all well and good to disagree with what I and others believe. It is not good that you ridicule such.

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Cyracuz,

I have to agree with Intrepid's post. I am not offended because you or others don't believe. I am offended because "some" seem to think they are right that there is no God and therefore deemed everyone that believes and stands by it an idiot or something.

I am no idiot. I have very strong faith and I'll never change that. Once you really believe fully you just know that you know that you know. Evidence? I can't provide the kind any non-believer would accept as empirical and I'm not going to try to. It is about faith. It is not about proof. That is why this issue will never be resolved. There is no common starting point with it.

It would depend on what science came up with as to whether I accepted it or not. I can tell you that if it contradicts the Bible I will not accept it. My trust and faith is in God and not in science. Man can make up anything they want. Science has been trying to disprove God's word from the gitgo.

I do not consider any non-believer an idiot or stupid or anything like that because they don't believe. They are just who they are, just as believers are who they are. I just wish there was some way we could all discuss these issues without resorting to any kind of attacks from either side.

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Just a point of curiosity/quibble Arella Mae. I presume you have no problem with the way God made the earth?

Science, whether you agree with it always or not, does attempt to understand how the world works - based on what is evident - which is where I presume you will have an issue.

Cyracruz - a note from quantum physics - all the 'laws' of nature/science were turned on their head by the discovery of quantum phsyics, which does not abide by the (previously believed to be all encompassing) laws of nature - and I'm sure you already know this :wink:

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Vikkor,

I don't know what you mean "a problem with the way God made the earth" but I can tell you I don't have a problem with the way God did anything. I may not understand why He did some of the stuff He did but since God is the ultimate authority I defer to that.

I don't see anything wrong with science trying to explain things. What I do have a problem with is science trying to make things right that God said are wrong.

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What about making things wrong that god says are right?

slavery
stoning a child to death for being insolent.

T
K
O

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The Mosaic Laws are no longer in effect, i.e., no stoning. Slaves in those days were not as slaves as we know them.

This link might help to explain about Mosaic Law:

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/whatlaw.htm

This one explains what I am saying about slavery being different in those days:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

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Diest TKO wrote:

What about making things wrong that god says are right?

slavery
stoning a child to death for being insolent.

T
K
O

They used to put people into stocks and burn people at the stake in the U.S. too. Slavery was commonplace in the South. Have you noticed that they no longer do this?

Slaves in ancient times were more like servants than slaves. They lived quite well for the time. Not like in the more modern era of North America.

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Arella Mae wrote:

The Mosaic Laws are no longer in effect, i.e., no stoning. Slaves in those days were not as slaves as we know them. Do a bit of research on it.

All of the above is up for debate within the Christian denominations. You guys can argue tha one out. I've got no money on either horse.

My question still stands.

T
K
O

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Intrepid wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
What about making things wrong that god says are right?

slavery
stoning a child to death for being insolent.

T
K
O

They used to put people into stocks and burn people at the stake in the U.S. too. Slavery was commonplace in the South. Have you noticed that they no longer do this?

Slaves in ancient times were more like servants than slaves. They lived quite well for the time. Not like in the more modern era of North America.

With slavery, the churches jumped on the end of the parade. The distinction of what slvery was in ancient times and what it was in early american history seems pretty weak. It's still the denial of an individual's liberty. With slavery the shades of grey seem pretty dark.

T
K
O

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Quote:

I don't know what you mean "a problem with the way God made the earth"

Hi Arella Mae,

I was refering to the laws of nature, mathematics, the process of fossilisation and the records it left, survival of the fittest (as in natural selection), animals designed to kill other animals, microbes designed to kill animals, the continuing expansion of the known universe...and things like that.

These are the things that science attempts to understand.

Just a note, because I know that 'survival of the fittest' comes close to evolution, and few christians believe in evolution - lets just say that species go extinct through natural selection, and others adapt and thrive (crows in cities is one example)...and we can all agree with that form of natural selection.

In relation to Animals designed to kill animals... they were either designed that way, or became that way through evolution (even 'corruption' is a form of evolution... seeing as Satan cannot create life)

Anyway - those sort of things Smile

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intrepid wrote:

You talk as though those of faith are idiots. This is simply not true. You will find that there are even scientists and other learned people who have faith in God. Therefore, this argument is moot.

There are indeed scientists who have fait in god. But when their science and their religion collide they revise their religion, not their science. This tiny fact makes a world of difference.

And make no mistake. I'm no atheist. There are concepts of god I can relate to. But I am not willing to embrace any belief that requires me to suspend my curiousity or my intellect.

Quote:

Also, since you address this post to me and Arella Mae.... it is evident that you put the two of us into a category. A category that you think is not up to your standard. We have made different posts, but rather than reply to us individually, you choose to lump us together. That says something, doesn't it?

I addressed this to the both of you since you seemed to be the only ones in this thread who were defending the bible. But if you want to know it, you do strike me as a bit more level headed than Arella.

I am not saying that those of faith, as you put it, are idiots. I am saying that those of blind faith are suspending their intellect, which is an act of idiocy...

Quote:

Intellect also said that the earth is flat; man could never get to the moon; flight was impossible; man could not travel under the seas, etc. etc. These were all proven wrong. It is quite possible that you will be proven wrong some day.

Indeed. And when that happens, (note I'm saying when, not if)... when that happens I will revise my understanding and hopefully come out of it with an increased understanding. But would you revise your faith if it became clear that it is based on lies? I think not, because then you already would have.

In my opinion the concept of god might be meaningful, but not the way it is interpreted by 99% of today's christians.

Arella

You say you are no idiot, and then proceed with this...

Arella wrote:

I have very strong faith and I'll never change that. Once you really believe fully you just know that you know that you know. Evidence? I can't provide the kind any non-believer would accept as empirical and I'm not going to try to. It is about faith. It is not about proof. That is why this issue will never be resolved. There is no common starting point with it.

It would depend on what science came up with as to whether I accepted it or not. I can tell you that if it contradicts the Bible I will not accept it. My trust and faith is in God and not in science. Man can make up anything they want. Science has been trying to disprove God's word from the gitgo.

So, should I just believe you when you say you are no idiot, or should I listen to what you then say and make up my own mind?

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Thanks for supporting me, Cyracuz.

Arella Mae and Intrepid,
I can see what you two are getting at. What is the difference between me and some other preacher out to convert the world. It pains me to see myself as someone who just wants to oppose my view on others.

I just find it the most frustrating thing that you two cannot understand what I am trying to say. I am not trying to force my view upon you, for to that I would have to explain my view to you, which is proving impossible.\

You know the difference between me and a preacher? A preacher just says, "I'm right. No discussion." I say, "I'm right, because _______ etc." Do not ever compare me to one with faith. It offends me. I have evidence, I have logic, I have reasoning. This is what separates me from you. I use tools. You just use brute force.

vikorr,
I was never PC and I never will be. In real life I'm a political bastard. I only offend people if it benefits me. I be nice to people purely for karma, as such. This general leads me to be nice and polite to everyone. But when I sign on to able2know, my alter ego awakens. On able2know, I don't give a rat's sh!t whether I offend people or not. I express my opinion. It's the only place where I can.

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Diest TKO wrote:

All of the above is up for debate within the Christian denominations. You guys can argue tha one out. I've got no money on either horse.

My question still stands.

T
K
O

What good does it do to give you an answer when you just toss it aside?

Cyracuz,

Gee thanx for the .....more level headed than Arella Mae comment.

Aperson,

What brute force? Where have I or Intrepid or anyone else on this thread applied brute force?

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aperson

I wouldn't say that I am supporting you, even though it is nice that you can find support where our opinions and views coincide. :wink:

But as I said, I am no atheist. I have a bone to pick with that lot too.

Basically it goes like this:

Theists put too much stock on faith. So much so that it negates the possibility of reason being a part of their core beliefs. This makes them dangerous in the same way that a mentally ill person can be dangeorus.

But atheists put too much stock in their reason, to the point that faith is seen as a weakness of the heart, an illness they'd rather see the human race cured of. I do not hold to that. What is man without faith? My problem with christians is what they are investing that faith in...

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My tools are reasoning etc.

As you don't have these, you just have to repeat the phrase "God exists" over and over until the victim submits.

I will give you a clue as to who you have used brute force on before. Subtract everyone else in the world, and who do you have left?

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Sorry Arella. I'm being crude, and I know it.

But your comments seem to indicate that you would rather suspend reason to keep your faith secure than explore both venues. I simply cannot understand why you would want to limit yourself so...

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Cyracuz wrote:

But atheists put too much stock in their reason, to the point that faith is seen as a weakness of the heart, an illness they'd rather see the human race cured of. I do not hold to that. What is man without faith? My problem with christians is what they are investing that faith in...

That is where our opinions differ. I think your view is neat and tidy, but I really don't any truth in faith. The cons of faith far outweight the pros. Prove me otherwise.

So what are you anyway? Agnostic? Deist?

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Her refusal to admit that she actively oppresses people with her views is what chafes my ass.

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I must admit I have not seen her actively opressing other people.

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I can link about a thousand exchanges on this subject.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2353647#2353647

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The KKK are right

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