The KKK are right

Quote:

Vikkor,

God would never ask me or anyone else to do such a thing. So I would know it is not God asking such a thing.

Let me make it a little easier to understand the question then - You are an Israelite back in the days of the Bible (when they did such things). God asks you to dash out a babies brains because it's parents don't believe in him.

Would you do it?

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Diest TKO wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
Faith may not have a value in your life TKO but it has value in mine.

I didn't mean to sound like you cannot apply logic whatsoever to God. Of course you can apply logic! But due to his immenseness, etc., logic doesn't explain it all.

An unhealthy place? According to whom? You? Others that don't believe as I do?

How do you reconsile all the contradictions in the bible.

And please don't answer: "What contradictions?"

T
K
O

Why should you not be expected to specifically list a contradiction?

Just because you think there is a contradiction, or you cut/paste a web source that lists 'contradictions' , doesn't mean a thing.

Be specific. You've said there's a contradiction.

Name one and we'll discuss.

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Arella Mae wrote:

If you honestly understand the concept of God then all of this is pointless. You cannot define God.

I see your practicing the typical hypocrisy of most all Christians. You tell us we can't define God but you define God as you choose to see him. You claim God is love and he loves all of mankind. You claim you derive this from the Bible.

John 3

Quote:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Well I claim God is a psychopath. Like you I also derive this from the Bible.

Hosea 13

Quote:

16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

I may also point out there are far more verses in the Bible about God's vicious behavior then there is about his loving nature.

There is a duality about God in the Bible. Christians want to believe God is love, fair and just. They turn a blind eye to all the evil God does and all the evil God commanded his people (the Jews) to do.

I quoted John 16 and 17 above. Let's continue on;

Quote:

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g]

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

Can you imagine that. John is saying whoever does not believe in God or Jesus is evil. A blanket statement. So I suppose all non-believers are evil, is that so? Or is there an alternative interpretation of these self-serving verses that give it a different meaning than what is obvious?

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Arella Mae wrote:

God is no respector of persons.

How the hell would you know? And if he has no respect for people, why do priests demand we respect him? More nonsense.

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real life wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Arella Mae wrote:
Faith may not have a value in your life TKO but it has value in mine.

I didn't mean to sound like you cannot apply logic whatsoever to God. Of course you can apply logic! But due to his immenseness, etc., logic doesn't explain it all.

An unhealthy place? According to whom? You? Others that don't believe as I do?

How do you reconsile all the contradictions in the bible.

And please don't answer: "What contradictions?"

T
K
O

Why should you not be expected to specifically list a contradiction?

Just because you think there is a contradiction, or you cut/paste a web source that lists 'contradictions' , doesn't mean a thing.

Be specific. You've said there's a contradiction.

Name one and we'll discuss.

I've already made my point: people of faith are ready to accept human explanations only when they support what they already believe. Things like logic are optional when discussing god, because if they were required, it drives the person out of a much needed comfort zone.

I don't need to discuss any specific contradictions, unless I wish to discuss them all. I won't live long enough to get them all.

If you'd like to illustrate my point by making a human explanation to one of these contradictions, be my guest.

T
K
O

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Vikkor,

That question is totally off the wall as far as I am concerned.

Anyway, I find it so odd that people will accept the bad things they perceive about God but throw out the good? Hey! You mean you guys have your own understanding too? That was sarcasm for the ones of you that feel you have to get snotty.

TKO I have enjoyed our discussion. You may not agree with my beliefs, and you may even think I'm out there or whatever, but you still treat everyone like a human being, with decency. For that I thank you.

Intrepid, your last statement says soooooooooooo much!

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Diest TKO wrote:

real life wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Arella Mae wrote:
Faith may not have a value in your life TKO but it has value in mine.

I didn't mean to sound like you cannot apply logic whatsoever to God. Of course you can apply logic! But due to his immenseness, etc., logic doesn't explain it all.

An unhealthy place? According to whom? You? Others that don't believe as I do?

How do you reconsile all the contradictions in the bible.

And please don't answer: "What contradictions?"

T
K
O

Why should you not be expected to specifically list a contradiction?

Just because you think there is a contradiction, or you cut/paste a web source that lists 'contradictions' , doesn't mean a thing.

Be specific. You've said there's a contradiction.

Name one and we'll discuss.

I don't need to discuss any specific contradictions, unless I wish to discuss them all. I won't live long enough to get them all.

I see.

So, we should simply accept your claim at face value without you providing any evidence?

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How about this. You answer my repeated request to give the conditions for which prayer is answered, before you ask for any contradictions.

I'll give you one for free.

How many men did the chief of David's captains kill?

a) 800
b) 300
c) The Bible is complete fiction, and can't get it's details straight.

Like I said, you are welcome to illustrate my point for me by giving a human explanation.

T
K
O

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Quote:

Vikkor,

That question is totally off the wall as far as I am concerned.

Arella, there is nothing off the wall about it. God asked the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child when enterring Caanan. (If you were living back then, and) If you wouldn't do it, you would have to ask yourself why.

Quote:

Anyway, I find it so odd that people will accept the bad things they perceive about God but throw out the good?

Have I done that? The Bible has many examples of love, none of which is at issue. The issue here is the ignoring / justifying of the evil parts (Attributed to God by the bible) by Christians.

You can't even asnwer whether or not you would do kill a baby at Gods command...but otherwise you have been trying to justify it.

As I've previously said, the answer to this conundrum is easy - the Bible isn't as perfect as many people think it is (the problem for many is that to accept such opens up a whole can of worms).

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Quote:

How many men did the chief of David's captains kill?

a) 800
b) 300
c) The Bible is complete fiction, and can't get it's details straight.

Diest TKO - numerical discrepencies don't make an account fiction. Talk to 10 people on the numbers of a crowd and it's quite possible you'll get 10 different answers, with widely varying figures. Talk to them 10 years down the track, and the discrepancies will be greater still.

The bible never claims to be perfect (no matter how Christians would like it to be so), it only claims to be inspired by God.

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real life,
Thanks for the reply.

I'm not blaming all Christians for the KKK's actions, I'm saying that there must be something wrong with the Bible if it spawned this rather large cult. And the KKK is primarily a Christian group, not a Democratic group. You don't see atheists killing people for no good reason, and while I know that religious people are more active supporters of charity, I sometimes can't help feeling that the terrorism outweighs the love. (I'm speaking of religion in general here).

I know the Bible brought out both sides of people in regards to slavery, but it is that very fact which is the problem. How can a book, supposedly written by God through his prophets (I know you take it literally) support slavery in the first place? This is not extremist like the KKK - everyone who could afford it had a slave, and if the felt uncomfortable, they were put at ease by people telling them that slavery is supported in the Bible.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of slavery in the tales of the Bible. Surely Jesus should have at least tried to abolish slavery? No, he just ignores it entirely. He even uses it in his parables. You know, if I were a slave, I wouldn't be good and obedient; would you? How could Jesus use slavery in an example of obedience to God? It's atrocious.

aperson

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Arella Mae,
You've choosen your belief, that's fine. I just find it irritating that you come here trying to support God, and using faith-based statements that mean nothing to the rest of us. If you're going to support God, you should try and use statements that the rest of us can comprehend. We can't beat "God exists. Period."! We can't say anything to it, but neither does it actually advance the debate or your argument. It's just plain silly.

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Quote:

You don't see atheists killing people for no good reason

Were you serious when you wrote this?

Quote:

Surely Jesus should have at least tried to abolish slavery? No, he just ignores it entirely. He even uses it in his parables. You know, if I were a slave, I wouldn't be good and obedient; would you? How could Jesus use slavery in an example of obedience to God? It's atrocious.

Depends on what issue Jesus was addressing. If he was addressing the issue of a slaves happiness (saying, slaves obey your masters), then he is correct. If he was addressing the actual existence of slavery, he is incorrect (in my view anyway).

Quote:

We can't beat "God exists. Period."!

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I'm sorry for the confusion, I meant
"Atheists don't kill in the name of atheism".

Maybe I used the wrong words. I was just trying to say that I can't respond to that statement, I can't reject it, I can't accept it, I can't debate against it, I can't discuss it.

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Quote:

I'm sorry for the confusion, I meant
"Atheists don't kill in the name of atheism".

Ah. Fair enough that you make the statement - but the statement itself is unfair to religion. All mass killings are done in the name of a belief, and all mass killings are done in the name of power.

Quote:

Maybe I used the wrong words. I was just trying to say that I can't respond to that statement, I can't reject it, I can't accept it, I can't debate against it, I can't discuss it.

Sounds like you are frustrated. May I ask - Is it possible for you to accept that another can accept the existence of a God?

To my way of thinking, there's nothing wrong in believing in the existance of a God...though certain aspects of the other stuff that often goes with it that can be problematic.

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vikorr wrote:

Quote:

Glad to see your wisdom here. Everything does not have to be about winning. That just lends to the widely held belief that some are not interested in discussion or facts, but only winning. That is very narrow minded.

At least you look at all sides and seem to have a balanced view.

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Real life wanted a contradiction; Arella Mae supplied us with one.

Arella Mae wrote:

Anyway, I find it so odd that people will accept the bad things they perceive about God but throw out the good?

So that brings up the question, what is God? Is God all love or is God both love and evil? If the latter than he is modeled after human. If the former than God of the Bible is false.

The Bible says God knows good and evil. It's evident he practices both in the Bible. Humans do the same.

Quote:

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Sounds like the only difference between man and God (or Gods) is one lives forever. Otherwise when it comes to good and evil both are the same.

So what is God in the Bible? A human that can live forever; oh ya, he can also make the sun stand still.

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aperson wrote:

the Bible ...spawned this rather large cult.

Southerners owned slaves because it made them money, not because it was part of their religion.

The KKK was a political terror group. These Democrats arose in response to the economic devastation of the South after the war.

The fact that they tried to use the Bible to justify their actions in no way proves that the Bible supports the KKK philosophy.

As I mentioned, the abolitionists both in Britain and America drew their beliefs from the Bible.

So how can you imply that 'the Bible spawned the KKK' but ignore those who took the opposite position?

Can you show that slave owners bought and sold slaves as part of their religion (i.e. they believed they would be sinning against God if they DIDN'T) ?

Abolitionists, on the other hand, took a very unpopular stance which went against the grain of society not only in the South but in the North as well. And they did it because they believed that to do otherwise would be an affront to God (i.e. it would be sin).

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have any of you ever read Philemon in the New testament? Its pretty clear on the issue of slavery. Paul wrote on behalf of Philemon's slave Onesimus, who had become a christian. Paul told Philemon to treat Onesimus as a brother, as he himself would want to be treated. This is revolutionary teaching in a time when slavery was a part of life. In rome during this time, almost half the population was slaves. They could be treated as harsh as their master deemed without any repurcussions brought on the master. So paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, told Philemon to do something that went against the grain of a whole culture.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

have any of you ever read Philemon in the New testament? Its pretty clear on the issue of slavery. Paul wrote on behalf of Philemon's slave Onesimus, who had become a christian. Paul told Philemon to treat Onesimus as a brother, as he himself would want to be treated. This is revolutionary teaching in a time when slavery was a part of life. In rome during this time, almost half the population was slaves. They could be treated as harsh as their master deemed without any repurcussions brought on the master. So paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, told Philemon to do something that went against the grain of a whole culture.

That teaching was not revolutionary nor new.

Like slavery in America it was a mixed bag. Some slave owners were kind, some cruel.

In Rome slavery may be harsh or easy, depending on the position the slave held. Working in the mines was more harsh than being a good cook.

Quote:

Slaves

Most work fell to slaves, who had been captured in battle. They mined for gold. They taught the young. They did paperwork. Some wealthy Romans had hundreds of slaves.

The philosopher Seneca advised, "Treat your slaves with kindness." Many Romans followed that advice. Some even freed their slaves, making it possible for them to become citizens.

Other slave masters were harsh. Slaves who rebelled could be branded, or forced to wear iron collars. They could also be crucified.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/If+You+Lived+in+Ancient+Rome:+What+was+it+like+to+live+in+the+capital...-a080965638

Quote:

"The result is that slaves who cannot talk before his (the master) face talk about him behind his back. It is this sort of treatment which makes people say, "You've as many enemies as you've slaves." They are not our enemies when we get them; we make them so." (Seneca)

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/roman_slaves.htm

FYI Seneca was not a Christian.

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