The KKK are right

Arella Mae wrote:

I get that you don't accept Him as the final authority but that doesn't change the concept of what God is. What I don't get is if you are so logical then why can't you logically see that IF He is God you cannot define Him with humanistic reasoning? I realize that is all we have but geesh, He's God![/color]

Moses gave us a pretty good idea of the concept of God as he saw it, and he used humanistic traits quite often in those descriptions. It is the Johnnies come lately that confuse the issue.

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Hey TKO,

The definition is logically flawed? According to humans! That is the part it seems many cannot get past. Yeah, it takes a leap of faith to get to that point and I would never deny that.

These are arguments that don't seem to have an ending.

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Believe it or not, logic is not entirely of human design. According to humans, or other, the concept is not logical.

T
K
O

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Put quite simply, not even god can make a sqare circle, or a triangle with 4 corners.

T
K
O

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The definition is logically flawed? According to humans!

This sounds oddly like you agree with it?

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That is the part it seems many cannot get past.

We are human - For what reason should we abandon our conscience and our understanding of what love is...in order to withhold judgement of the bible defined God?

Surely, if one is going to come to love God- then one must be able to love each and every aspect of God?

Quote:

Yeah, it takes a leap of faith to get to that point and I would never deny that.

Do you take a leap of faith and say 'well it seems evil...the things that these people did...but God told them to do it, so it's okay then."

Tell me - if God told you to go and dash a baby's brains out because its parents didn't believe in him - would you do it?

Btw, much of my point is - the NT God is rather different to the OT God - and there is, to my way of thinking, a rather normal reason for that (ie. The bible is written by men, with all their prejudices, loves and hates...even if it was influenced by God)

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Hmmm, ok how's this for ya TKO? I believe God can do anything. Even make a rock so heavy He can't lift it. How? Beats the heck out of me! Laughing

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Arella Mae wrote:

If you honestly understand the concept of God then all of this is pointless. You cannot define God. God defines you. You do not create God. God creates you.
[color]

THAT IT!! That's exactly what I was talking about in my post on page 29!

You know what the problem with this is: you and the rest of us aren't thinking on the same plane. We base all our statements on the fact that this may or may not be true, where as you just assume this is true, and then base all your arguments for God on it.

Ie: Well God exists, therefore [insert statement here], therefore God exists!

Circular logic Arella Mae!

Imagine if I said to you: God does not exist (which I would never say) and you're devoting you're life to an imaginary being. You would never accept anything else that came from my mouth (or fingers). Why? Because I am assuming that it is a fact that God does not exist. I am using the words "does not" which implies fact.

Now reverse the situation. You are saying "God exists" and assuming that this is fact. Everything else you say is based on this first statement, and therefore is unstable.

Sure, I'm an atheist, but I would never say anything as ignorant and twisted as "God definitely, completely, without doubt does not exist". You shouldn't say the opposite either.

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Arella Mae - I believe when you say that you believe that god could make that rock. I would then extrapolate that you believe that you believe God can do the impossible.

If this is so, then it should not be hard to believe that God can act in an evil manner no matter how God is defined by man or other.

As for believing he can make the rock, but not knowing how, consider what that means in terms of your belief.

T
K
O

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Circular logic, flawed reasoning, etc. All humanistic terms, which again, is what we have to work with, I agree.

As for God being evil? No, He isn't and can't be. That goes against His word and God is not a man that He would lie.

Please none of you think for a single second that I honestly don't know how some of this must sound to you. I do. For those that have absolutely no belief or faith in God it is total fairytale and way out there. I understand that. I accept that.

My faith in God is what it is FAITH. Plain and simple, to me that is. I know I frustrate the heck out of some of you because of what I believe and that I can say, "well, God said it, whether I like it or not, that settles it" and I'm perfectly ok with that. But that's me. That's based on my life experiences, etc.

You can't give someone understanding. You can't give someone faith.

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As for God being evil? No, He isn't and can't be. That goes against His word and God is not a man that He would lie.

An evil person can lie, can't he? And evil person can pretend to be good, can he not? An evil persons persona changes depending on the circumstances so that he can get the most out of the circumstance...and it's all false...

I'm not saying that God is evil - I'm pointing out the fallacy in your statement "He can't be evil because he says he isn't"

I would ask again - if God told you to dash out the brains of a child because it's parents didn't believe in God, would you?

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Please none of you think for a single second that I honestly don't know how some of this must sound to you. I do.

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For those that have absolutely no belief or faith in God it is total fairytale and way out there. I understand that. I accept that.

The second quote, if it's an explanation of the first, is wrong (for me). I like to think that God exists, but I don't think that the bible is an accurate representation of who God is (though the NT would to my way of thinking be more accurate than the OT...but that's just my opinion).

Even when I was a Christian, I was always very curious, and I wanted to know why I believed what I believed, I wanted to understand the principles on which it is based, and I wanted to be able to form a seemless big picture. From that I saw that the world offered as much to learn (and in the end, more) than the bible, and that it should be read in conjunction with natures principles...that lead to a whole new way of looking at things, and a new way of looking at God.

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Vikkor,

God would never ask me or anyone else to do such a thing. So I would know it is not God asking such a thing.

The Bible says to test all things. We are to test all things according to God's word.

Faith is probably the hardest thing I can think of to try to explain to someone. I can't explain it so that anyone would understand it. I wish I could though.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Circular logic, flawed reasoning, etc. All humanistic terms, which again, is what we have to work with, I agree.

Like I said before, logic is not entirely of human design. Humans didn't decide 2+2=4. You are trying to assert that logic cannot be used when analysing God, but this is just not so.

Arella Mae wrote:

As for God being evil? No, He isn't and can't be. That goes against His word and God is not a man that He would lie.

Sounds impossible does it? Why does it sound so impossible to you?

I don't think God is evil, I don't think it is anything.

Arella Mae wrote:

Please none of you think for a single second that I honestly don't know how some of this must sound to you. I do. For those that have absolutely no belief or faith in God it is total fairytale and way out there. I understand that. I accept that.

It's more than incredulous, it's counter intuitive.

Arella Mae wrote:

My faith in God is what it is FAITH. Plain and simple, to me that is. I know I frustrate the heck out of some of you because of what I believe and that I can say, "well, God said it, whether I like it or not, that settles it" and I'm perfectly ok with that. But that's me. That's based on my life experiences, etc.

You've put yourself in a unhealthy place. If it comes down to what god says, then you'd better be ready when what it says one time conflicts with what it says at a different time.

What then? Or more accuately, what now?

Arella Mae wrote:

You can't give someone understanding. You can't give someone faith.

Correct on both accounts. The difference is that understanding has value, where as faith has none.

T
K
O

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Faith may not have a value in your life TKO but it has value in mine.

I didn't mean to sound like you cannot apply logic whatsoever to God. Of course you can apply logic! But due to his immenseness, etc., logic doesn't explain it all.

An unhealthy place? According to whom? You? Others that don't believe as I do?

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aperson wrote:

real life ignores me.

Well I half-expected it.

I just find it sad that when he can't come up with a counterargument, he either ignores, avoids the topic and changes the subject, or resorts to petty insults.

hi aperson,

Don't want you to feel neglected. But I don't often have time to answer every single post.

Often I'll answer one member on an argument that has actually been offered by several.

Since I'm often the only one taking my view, it's usually not possible to keep up with everyone individually.

This is especially so , since my time on A2K is fairly limited.

Nevertheless, I'll try to hit the high points:

aperson wrote:

Real life,
Yes, ideas and misuse are separate things, but when ideas lead to wide, not just extremist, misuse, surely that says something about the ideas?

You say that America is tolerant. Have you not read the title of this thread? It is in America that the KKK are rising for a second time, not only condemning blacks as soulless animals, but now attack imigrants as well? In no other society do you see as much racism. And I think I know what it is due to.

Do you know that people used the Bible to justify slavery? Obviously not. People said that blacks were the descendands of Ham, whom God had condemned.

Also, slavery is ripe in the Bible. It's everywhere, and God does nothing to stop it, or even show any sign of objecting to it! In fact, slavery is used as a background part of more than one parable. The Bible = Freedom and Tolerance? Yeah right.

Did you also know that slavery exists in America? Africa, I can handle - they're up to their knees in sh!t, but America? The enlightened people? The greatest society on Earth? Christians?? Here is a the first of 211,000 results I found when typing "slavery in modern america" into Google.

You should try reading the Bible sometimes, real life. It will fill in a gaping hole in your education.

You bring up slavery.

Yes, many southerners who owned slaves were Bible believers.

So were the abolitionists who opposed them.

So why do you pretend that the Bible 'supported' the slavery position, while ignoring those who drew their opposition to slavery from the Bible?

The KKK was a political terror organization. Southern Democrats put the fear of the hood into blacks, Republicans and anybody else they generally didn't like.

Since we are constantly told that Christians today should someone bear responsibility for the crusades, the inquisition, etc ------

---- should Democrats today bear responsibility for the Klan's actions?

What's the dif?

The 'dean of the Senate' (and ONLY sitting member of the Senate who is known to have been a high ranking Klan official) Robert Byrd D-WV recently commented on national TV regarding his opinion of 'white niggers'.

Is the Klan really who you think it is?

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Arella Mae wrote:

Faith may not have a value in your life TKO but it has value in mine.

I didn't mean to sound like you cannot apply logic whatsoever to God. Of course you can apply logic! But due to his immenseness, etc., logic doesn't explain it all.

An unhealthy place? According to whom? You? Others that don't believe as I do?

How do you reconsile all the contradictions in the bible.

And please don't answer: "What contradictions?"

T
K
O

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Wouldn't dream of saying what contradictions. The so called contradictions can be explained; however, few on this forum have ever accepted any of the the explanations for the seeming contradictions.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Wouldn't dream of saying what contradictions. The so called contradictions can be explained; however, few on this forum have ever accepted any of the the explanations for the seeming contradictions.

You held human explanations as suspect when they challenged God.

Now you seem eager to use human explanations to support God.

See the problem?

T
K
O

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Yes an anticipated one as a matter of fact. It's not about proof TKO. It never has been about proof and never will be. It's about faith. You have it or you don't have it. Seem to simple of an explanation? Perhaps.

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Arella Mae wrote:

It's not about proof TKO. It never has been about proof and never will be. It's about faith.

It's only about faith, when there is no proof. When you have proof, you can have both.

T
K
O

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Arella Mae wrote:

Vikkor,

Faith is probably the hardest thing I can think of to try to explain to someone. I can't explain it so that anyone would understand it. I wish I could though.

I don't think it is the explanation of faith that they don't understand. I think it is the reason for it.

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The KKK are right

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