The greatest irony...

fresco wrote:

Quote:
Why is your transcedence so fleeting?

....because "thought" embodied in "language" immediately re-invokes a dualistic perspective.

So then, your attempt to live out your 'nondualistic' philosophy is immediately destroyed when thought is applied?

I couldn't have said it better myself. Laughing

btw if language is a barrier, I wonder then how anyone ever explained it to you, or how you ever explain it to anyone else?

fresco wrote:

Quote:
If doing away with 'self' is simply a matter of deciding to do so, then what's the hang-up?

No ...."decision" does not come into it. Such a process is meaningful only at the level of "self".

That's exactly the level I was addressing. Why do YOU not ALWAYS exist in the 'selfless' manner you describe?

I am not asking you to cause someone ELSE to live 'selflessly' . I am asking why you do not.

fresco wrote:

BTW "Nationalism" is merely another form of "organized religion". The fact that Chinese nationalism uses "atheism" as rationale against its theistic opponents is trivial.

It's not trivial to Christians living in China. They haven't found that the ruling class' adherence to a nonBiblical principle (i.e no faith or belief) has caused them (the rulers) to live 'selflessly'.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Arella...

....

whatever...

More than just whatever.

Intelligent, freethinking and enlightened individuals are not necessarily compassionate and loving.

(I will aver that not many who call themselves christian are likewise.)

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neo

Whatever as in Arella and I do not speak the same language. She uses the same words as I, but they mean totally different things it seems...

Quote:

Intelligent, freethinking and enlightened individuals are not necessarily compassionate and loving.

I disagree. But in this case, my compassion for Arella is what makes me want to burst the bubble of self delusion she has trapped herself in.

And my love for the species makes me work against the tyrrany of religion, since religion has nothing to offer us but degenerative effects on our evolution.

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What you have said is quite interesting, though perhaps a diversion from the topic:

Evolutionary theory presents a continually more adaptive view of the world; some might say continually improving.

The bible shows man as in a degenerative state from original perfection.

However, the bible does present a hope for return to the original (Edenic) state.

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The bible is a tool of oppression, a means to rule by maintaining the ignorance of those you seek to control.
Nothing more.
The fact that so many people seem to believe it blindly is scary.

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Cyracuz wrote:

..... religion has nothing to offer us but degenerative effects on our evolution.

Interesting that you invoke evolution at this point.

--First of all, evolution is purported to be a genetic/biological process. How can religion alter that which is said to be a biological phenomenon?

--Next, if indeed we did evolve, is not religion a result of that evolution, (especially since religion is evidenced in over 90% of the human population) ?

--Also, evolution is said to be a 'directionless' process. So how do you know that religion is 'harming' evolution? How do you know what direction evolution is SUPPOSED to take?

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Cyracuz wrote:

The bible is a tool of oppression, a means to rule by maintaining the ignorance of those you seek to control.
Nothing more.

The fact that you believe this blindly is scary.

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neologist wrote:

Intelligent, freethinking and enlightened individuals are not necessarily compassionate and loving.

But they are certainly free to think that they are.

However, my experience with those who term themselves 'freethinkers' is that they are among the most intolerant individuals I've ever met.

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Ok, let me modify that statement a bit...

Religion has nothing to offer us but degenerative effects on our development of brighter intellects and better judgement, higher morals and a better tomorrow.

And I do not believe blindly that the bible is a tool of oppression. I believe it as a result of reading it, hearing about it, and seeing what christianity has been and done to mankind through history.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Ok, let me modify that statement a bit...

Religion has nothing to offer us but degenerative effects on our development of brighter intellects and better judgement, higher morals and a better tomorrow.

What are 'higher morals'?

I thought you believed that ALL morality is subjective?

Aren't all moral judgements then just a matter of opinion, or do you secretly hold to an objective morality that you believe ALL should adhere to?

Cyracuz wrote:

And I do not believe blindly that the bible is a tool of oppression. I believe it as a result of reading it, hearing about it, and seeing what christianity has been and done to mankind through history.

btw the Bible hasn't 'done' anything to humanity.

Christianity hasn't 'done' anything to humanity.

The Bible is a book made of paper , and can 'do' nothing.

Christianity is a set of beliefs which can 'do' nothing.

Your issue is with people , many of whom have acted under color of Christianity in committing some atrocious acts.

In this we agree.

But let me remind you that use is not the same as misuse.

Should we ban baseball bats because they have been used as instruments of murder?

Are baseball bats 'tools of oppression' ?

When you are done setting up strawmen, then maybe we can talk honestly about those who MISuse the Bible and/or Christianity.

But your holier than thou approach is so tired and worn that it gets you nowhere.

Your broadbrush of all religion as 100% harmful is such a ridiculous caricature. Who can take you seriously?

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Quote:

Aren't all moral judgements then just a matter of opinion, or do you secretly hold to an objective morality that you believe ALL should adhere to?

By higher morals I mean:
The ability to make choices based on personal evaluation of any give situation.
The integrity to stand behind those choices.

Isn't it the bible that preaches an objective morality that christians believe ALL should adhere to?

And you're right. My issue is with people. The people who wrote and compiled the bible, for instance. Or do you think that this book was magically delivered by angels?

Christianity is a set of beliefs, it's not the truth.
And while baseball bats have been used as tools of murder, christianity has more often been used as the motive for those murders.

Organized religion is 100% harmful. It seeks to prevent people from engaging in their true spiritual quest.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Aren't all moral judgements then just a matter of opinion, or do you secretly hold to an objective morality that you believe ALL should adhere to?

By higher morals I mean:
The ability to make choices based on personal evaluation of any give situation.
The integrity to stand behind those choices.

So if one wants to personally evaluate any decision and use the Bible (or any other tool, book, guideline, etc) in the process, why do think they should not be allowed to do so?

Why are you so against freedom of religion? Is freedom only for those who agree with you, and not for those who disagree?

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snood wrote:

I didn't smell nuthin

Personal aroma may be the culprit. Laughing

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Freedom of religion is a confused term, because organized religion negates the freedom of pursuing one's true spiritual quest, in the true meaning of the word religion, rather than the meaning it has taken on in the modern world.

I am all for the freedom of spiritual fulfillment. Organized religion stands as a bar against that.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Side thought:

Arella Mae wrote:
non-believers

I find this term to be very interesting, because it means a lot of different things based on context.

A Christian may be refering to an Atheist as a "non-believer" because of what they believe and not what they don't believe. By this standard a Christian could additionally be concidered and accurated labeled a "non-believer" be cause they don't believe in evolution or BB.

But really only one party chooses this wording. Why not address people for what they believe and not what they don't believe?

T
K
O

It is generally universally recognized that a non believer is someone who does not believe in God. This does not refer to atheists but rather to anyone who does not believe, for whatever reason, in God.

A believer, on the other hand, is considered to be someone who believes in God.

I hape that I have answered your question to your satisfaction.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Ok, let me modify that statement a bit...

This does seem to be the tact of those whose argument is quashed.

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intrepid

I wouldn't expect you to understand, being of inferior intellect and mental capacity, since you have drugged your fevered mind with that intoxicating substance you call christianity. Twisted Evil

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Cyracuz wrote:

intrepid

I wouldn't expect you to understand, being of inferior intellect and mental capacity, since you have drugged your fevered mind with that intoxicating substance you call christianity.

Resorting to this type of post does nothing to further your cause. You should try to look beyond your hatred of Christianity and try to understand that others cannot be what you expect them to be. In this case, I am glad that I am not.

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Hehe.. I am resigned to the fact that nothing can further it. So there is nothing left but to try and have a little fun with all this. Come to think, that's why I started thrashing christianity in the first place. For the fun of it... :wink:

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Cyracuz wrote:

Hehe.. I am resigned to the fact that nothing can further it. So there is nothing left but to try and have a little fun with all this. Come to think, that's why I started thrashing christianity in the first place. For the fun of it... :wink:

There you go again...changing the tact when you are called on something. I hope that your fun does not hurt too many people. :wink:

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The greatest irony...

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