The greatest irony...

real life wrote:

fresco wrote:

Cyracuz,

You say elsewhere that you (and all) are God in the holistic sense of being part of some "creative principle". If this is the sense in which you interpret Jesus' own alleged claims you need to consider whether such a non-dualistic concept requires a leap of intellect beyond the capacity of most, and dysfunctional to the self integrity of those who call themselves "believers" in the normal (dualistic) sense.

Maybe instead he just needs to read the Bible through a few times to become familiar with it's contents before he makes assumptions about what it does and doesn't say.

Cyracuz wrote:

In the bible, does jesus refer to scripture?

C's characterization of Christians (as being 'unlike Jesus') seems to be based on what he wishes the Bible to say, not what it says.

Cyracuz apparently knows very little of the behavior of Jesus.

Of course your assumption is that 'most believers' lack the intelligence to understand a different (your?) POV.

Just because one doesn't share a POV with you doesn't mean he can't understand it.

Two different things.

But then, you would've missed out on your opportunity to parade your intelligence by denigrating others.

in the light of to my point about intellect.

You say elsewhere that you (and all) are God in the holistic sense of being part of some "creative principle". If this is the sense in which you interpret Jesus' own alleged claims you need to consider whether such a non-dualistic concept requires a leap of intellect beyond the capacity of most, and dysfunctional to the self integrity of those who call themselves "believers" in the normal (dualistic) sense.

And Real Life
My assumption isn't that most believers lack the intelligence to understand different points of view. My assumption is, and it holds true so far, that most believers are unwilling to consider trying to understand alternative points of view.

I don't need the proof you require. That is just the way it is. Why? I don't know. I wish I did.

When you say that, Arella, you are basically saying that you do not care if everything you believe is founded on a lie. You do not care if it's true or not, and you certainly do not wish to find out.

That is the problem. I have a hard time accepting that, because if you think in such a way you have basically given the authority to decide what's valuable in your life over to others. That is wrong, and can have implications far beyond just you.

For instance, do you believe that everything George Bush does and says is right? There are those who believe that it is simply because he's the president. Need I say more?

fresco wrote:

You say elsewhere that you (and all) are God in the holistic sense of being part of some "creative principle". If this is the sense in which you interpret Jesus' own alleged claims you need to consider whether such a non-dualistic concept requires a leap of intellect beyond the capacity of most, and dysfunctional to the self integrity of those who call themselves "believers" in the normal (dualistic) sense.

I do not know if it requires a leap of intellect beyond the capacity of most. But it does require a different mind-set from the start. One that isn't taught by the bible, even though the character named Jesus in the book touches on it.

In the bible, does jesus refer to scripture?

And Real Life
My assumption isn't that most believers lack the intelligence to understand different points of view. My assumption is, and it holds true so far, that most believers are unwilling to consider trying to understand alternative points of view.

non-dualistic transcendence

de-personalised holistic "God"

The "leap of intellect" is one beyond the trivialities of "selves" and their parochial "beliefs".

I believe we have become esoteric to the point of obfuscation.

I believe we have become esoteric to the point of obfuscation.