subjunctive mood of to be

Neither could I find Kater in any online German dictionary.

All animals get the 'natural sexus' when you can see it: die Katze (female cat), der Kater (male cat), der Hund (male dog), die Hündin (female dog) etc.

flaja then named boy (Junge) and girl (Mädchen).

flaja must have been ill when that was taught or similar: all diminutiva ending with "-chen' or "-lein" are neutrum:

JTT wrote:

flaja wrote:

That is an illusion, Flaja, pure illusion. You think that the grammar of English is simple or "purified" because you daily deploy it so easily. The grammar of English is no less complicated than the grammar of any other language.

Having studied German for 5 years, I must disagree.

German has 3 genders and nouns don't always have their natural gender (Das Maedchen is a neuter noun but it means "young girl or maiden" while a male cat is die Katze, a feminine noun; a young girl is it, but a boy cat is she). English has 3 genders and humans and animals have their natural gender while everything else is neuter, it).

German has 4 grammatical cases where English has only 2. Each grammatical case in German has its own definite articles and pronouns and these vary by gender. English has one definite article for all genders and cases.

And if German had been your first language or if you had moved there as a child you'd be fluent in both, and your unconscious knowledge of the grammar of German would put your book-learned study of German grammar to shame.

You are under the mistaken impression, a common though, that we learn our first language by studying grammar or that we can improve that the same. Not true.

Please don't take my frankness in this for rancor.

Quote:

These complications that adults see in other languages are not at all complications to children. They learn these intricacies with aplomb, while adult learners stumble and fumble their way thru a new language.

In grade school I was never formally taught much grammar. I was taught to identify what was grammatically correct based on how it sounded. I was merely copying my teachers rather than learning grammar. I learned as much about English grammar in my first 2 years of German class than I had in by previous 7 years of language arts and English class.

You can count your lucky stars for that. The stuff they teach/taught in grade school/JHS/SHS is basically a load of crap, a huge load of crap.

Quote:

Every speaker masters the structure of their language, usually by the age of five or six.

They master what is acceptable in their limited community of family and friends, not necessarily what is standard. If people were to master English grammar by the age of 6, John Wariner's junior high school English Grammar textbooks would have never been written.

That book is a joke, Flaja, an absolute joke.

Quote:

If English grammar was so simple then translations to English shouldn't be at all difficult; they should be a piece of cake.

It is difficult to translate German into English in that German has a much more limited vocabulary and a single word in German could possibly carry the meaning of several different English words that don't all have the exact shade of meaning. You may translate with one shade when the German meant another. But, in my experience it is far more difficult to translate English into German because German has so much more grammar to worry about. I often catch myself mentally translating English into German while trying to find a simpler way to make the translation so less grammar is involved.

You're talking about a whole different thing. The study of grammar is immensely, unbelievably difficult. Using a language is the most difficult thing we do as humans. But your few years of study of German, while highly commendable, is nothing compared to what you know of your own grammar, though you couldn't consciously explain the whys, no insult intended.

JTT said:

"These complications that adults see in other languages are not at all complications to children. They learn these intricacies with aplomb, while adult learners stumble and fumble their way thru a new language.

Every speaker masters the structure of their language, usually by the age of five or six. Some become more adept at using it, but all know the structure. If they didn't how could they communicate?"

"aplomb"? "...masters the structure... by the age of 6 or 6"???????? You obviously have not read any high school or university papers lately!

As to how they communicate, have you read any of omsigDavid's posts??

I beg to differ. In my experience, many native English speakers exhibit appalling non-grammatical English. The misuse of the English language is all around us, with many examples in our own Pet Peeves of the English language thread.

The vast vast majority of those pet peeves are nothing but repetitions of someone else's old wives tales, Mame. To language scientists, these presriptions are jokes. As they've, one after another, been debunked, no one has risen to defend them because there's no defence for them.

How many times have you seen the wrong usage of direct pronouns? And things like "should of" instead of "should have"? It is written incorrectly because it is said incorrectly and it is said incorrectly because it is not being taught anymore.

'of' and 'have' are part of a group of words in English that have a strong form and a weak form. And, as it happens, the weak form of 'of' and the weak form of 'have' ['ve] are identical in sound.

I found German grammar much harder to learn than French, Italian, Spanish, or Greek (not that I'm fluent in any of them). It was all those datives and genitives and whatnots.

And our prepositions pose a nightmare to many ESL students. I know this because I used to assist said students with their TOEFLs, and by far their greatest difficulty were the prepositions.

I'm not disputing that people can find one thing more difficult than another; nor would I dispute that some find certain things harder to learn but that doesn't mean that the grammar is any more difficult.

Children still all come online with language at about the same ages. They don't wrestle with the grammar, they just do it.

To write it you must speak it, to speak it you must think it. A person doesn't normally write it differently than the way they think it.

Oh, but we do write things much much differently

flaja wrote:

JTT wrote:

flaja wrote:

That is an illusion, Flaja, pure illusion. You think that the grammar of English is simple or "purified" because you daily deploy it so easily. The grammar of English is no less complicated than the grammar of any other language.

Having studied German for 5 years, I must disagree.

German has 3 genders and nouns don't always have their natural gender (Das Maedchen is a neuter noun but it means "young girl or maiden" while a male cat is die Katze, a feminine noun; a young girl is it, but a boy cat is she). English has 3 genders and humans and animals have their natural gender while everything else is neuter, it).

German has 4 grammatical cases where English has only 2. Each grammatical case in German has its own definite articles and pronouns and these vary by gender. English has one definite article for all genders and cases.

And if German had been your first language or if you had moved there as a child you'd be fluent in both, and your unconscious knowledge of the grammar of German would put your book-learned study of German grammar to shame.

You are under the mistaken impression, a common though, that we learn our first language by studying grammar or that we can improve that the same. Not true.

Please don't take my frankness in this for rancor.

Quote:

These complications that adults see in other languages are not at all complications to children. They learn these intricacies with aplomb, while adult learners stumble and fumble their way thru a new language.

In grade school I was never formally taught much grammar. I was taught to identify what was grammatically correct based on how it sounded. I was merely copying my teachers rather than learning grammar. I learned as much about English grammar in my first 2 years of German class than I had in by previous 7 years of language arts and English class.

You can count your lucky stars for that. The stuff they teach/taught in grade school/JHS/SHS is basically a load of crap, a huge load of crap.

Quote:

Every speaker masters the structure of their language, usually by the age of five or six.

They master what is acceptable in their limited community of family and friends, not necessarily what is standard. If people were to master English grammar by the age of 6, John Wariner's junior high school English Grammar textbooks would have never been written.

That book is a joke, Flaja, an absolute joke.

Quote:

If English grammar was so simple then translations to English shouldn't be at all difficult; they should be a piece of cake.

It is difficult to translate German into English in that German has a much more limited vocabulary and a single word in German could possibly carry the meaning of several different English words that don't all have the exact shade of meaning. You may translate with one shade when the German meant another. But, in my experience it is far more difficult to translate English into German because German has so much more grammar to worry about. I often catch myself mentally translating English into German while trying to find a simpler way to make the translation so less grammar is involved.

You're talking about a whole different thing. The study of grammar is immensely, unbelievably difficult. Using a language is the most difficult thing we do as humans. But your few years of study of German, while highly commendable, is nothing compared to what you know of your own grammar, though you couldn't consciously explain the whys, no insult intended.

If we learned grammar as easily as you think we do- essentially by diffusion- grammar would never be taught in school because there would be no need to learn it in a formal academic setting.

Mame wrote:

JTT said:

"These complications that adults see in other languages are not at all complications to children. They learn these intricacies with aplomb, while adult learners stumble and fumble their way thru a new language.

Every speaker masters the structure of their language, usually by the age of five or six. Some become more adept at using it, but all know the structure. If they didn't how could they communicate?"

"aplomb"? "...masters the structure... by the age of 6 or 6"???????? You obviously have not read any high school or university papers lately!

As to how they communicate, have you read any of omsigDavid's posts??

I was not referring to writing, Mame. Writing is a skill that is separate and much different than actual spoken language and it must be learned for the rules that govern many types of writing are much different than those of speech.

I beg to differ. In my experience, many native English speakers exhibit appalling non-grammatical English. The misuse of the English language is all around us, with many examples in our own Pet Peeves of the English language thread.

How many times have you seen the wrong usage of direct pronouns? And things like "should of" instead of "should have"? It is written incorrectly because it is said incorrectly and it is said incorrectly because it is not being taught anymore.

And about children - I believe that the majority of children will pick up most languages faster than most adults... they're better sponges.

I found German grammar much harder to learn than French, Italian, Spanish, or Greek (not that I'm fluent in any of them). It was all those datives and genitives and whatnots.

And our prepositions pose a nightmare to many ESL students. I know this because I used to assist said students with their TOEFLs, and by far their greatest difficulty were the prepositions.

To write it you must speak it, to speak it you must think it. A person doesn't normally write it differently than the way they think it.

The vast vast majority of those pet peeves are nothing but repetitions of someone else's old wives tales, Mame. To language scientists, these presriptions are jokes. As they've, one after another, been debunked, no one has risen to defend them because there's no defence for them.

'of' and 'have' are part of a group of words in English that have a strong form and a weak form. And, as it happens, the weak form of 'of' and the weak form of 'have' ['ve] are identical in sound.

Children still all come online with language at about the same ages. They don't wrestle with the grammar, they just do it.[/color]

Oh, but we do write things much much differently

Diminutives were never explained to me in 5 years of high school German or 1 semester of college German, although some were used in class.

Never explained to me in 5 years of high school German or 1 semester of college German.

I don't recall talking about Junge, but I did give Das as the (nominative) definite article for Maedchen. Das is the neuter article, isn't it?

flaja wrote:

Diminutives were never explained to me in 5 years of high school German or 1 semester of college German, although some were used in class.

You mentioned German grammar. It's not my fault when you weren't taught properly.

From the two most common German-English dictionaties:

Eh, excuse me folks, may I have your attention please?

If you disagree with Walter or JTT, you're wrong.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

flaja wrote:

Diminutives were never explained to me in 5 years of high school German or 1 semester of college German, although some were used in class.

You mentioned German grammar. It's not my fault when you weren't taught properly.

From the two most common German-English dictionaties:

Not found in Unsere Freunde.