0
   

Nightmare father.....

 
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:31 pm
Quote:
The crux I guess is that I was always feeling I should do more, but feeling that it was unbearable to do more. Constant guilt......


This phrase sprung out while reading your initial post, dlowan, especially
since your dream revolves around this passage, where you are at his
house with no way of escaping.

Perhaps it was a feeling of expectations your father had of you, resp.
you felt you did not measure up to his expectations, as he never seemed
to convey the emotional acceptance, you were most definitely seeking,
as we all do/did from our parents.

You probably need to accept that due to his own shortcomings, and inabilities of being a loving father, you felt indifferent towards his wants
and needs when it came time to turn the tables, meaning he became
dependent on you.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:49 pm
Tico wrote:
Um ... not sure how to say this, but I'll give it a go anyway ...

I don't, personally, believe that dreams are literal, so I have doubts that the problem is your relationship with your father. I believe, but may be wrong, that dreams are a subconscious manifestation of current anxieties, or whatever. They may take on the colours of the past, because those images and sensory memories are buried deep, but strongly. The dreams, however, are likely to be interpretations of current problems that have some resonance of past experiences. In other words, if you're dreaming of conflicts with your father, I would suspect that it's because you have real fears of being trapped into a similar untenable situation, now or in the foreseeable future.

....

I could be wrong. It's just my 2 cents. ((hugs)) either way.



Thanks!

But...this IS about my dad...the feelings in the dream are exactly the same unresolved ones I am aware of when awake.


I know what you are saying, though.


cyphercat wrote:
Quote:
... I often seem to be living in his house... I have a home which I am longing to escape to....but which seems further and further away.



Ugh, I have dreams *exactly* like that -- it's weird to hear someone else describe it -- oh, uh, 'cept in mine, your dad's usually not there-- but my mom makes a good substitute....Hey, I'll take over on your dad for a while if you'll do the nightmares about my mom, deal?

......I wish I had advice, but I can't figure out the triggers for mine, either... just sometimes there are bunches of them, sometimes even multiple times a night, and I wake up all tense and with jaws clenched for days at a time; then other times I go months without 'em... So mostly I'm just posting to say, boy, do I hear ya, and I'm going to read along and hope for insights too... Confused



You know...this:

"Hey, I'll take over on your dad for a while if you'll do the nightmares about my mom, deal?"

is probably not as nuts as it sounds!!!


One technique some people use a lot in therapy is stuff like scheduling worry time, or act as if such and such is true, or take on different personae on different days.



Mebbe I COULD take care of your stuff about your mum for a week, and you take care of mine about my dad?


It would be bloody interesting.......sometimes those nutso tasks have a big effect!!!


What should I be worrying about?




(BTW, I am not obsessed with bad feelings re this stuff a lot of the time any more, I just am aware of it sometimes, and the nightmares recurring a bit has made me think about it more intensely...that and the trigger...whose nature I have just realised...CHRISTMAS!!! Doh.....the usual suspect.)



CalamityJane wrote:
Quote:
The crux I guess is that I was always feeling I should do more, but feeling that it was unbearable to do more. Constant guilt......


This phrase sprung out while reading your initial post, dlowan, especially
since your dream revolves around this passage, where you are at his
house with no way of escaping.

Perhaps it was a feeling of expectations your father had of you, resp.
you felt you did not measure up to his expectations, as he never seemed
to convey the emotional acceptance, you were most definitely seeking,
as we all do/did from our parents.

You probably need to accept that due to his own shortcomings, and inabilities of being a loving father, you felt indifferent towards his wants
and needs when it came time to turn the tables, meaning he became
dependent on you.


Thing is I wasn't indifferent...I felt very badly for him.


It's true, though, that the things I could not bear to do for him are things I did unquestioningly and gladly (and more...including the most intimate nursing) that I did for my mum during the long months she was bedridden. I just naturally took over all the house stuff, too, and did not resent it at all. They are also things I do happily for friends.


Hmmmmmmmmm.........that's helpful, in terms of realising that it is not just some inner laziness and lack of care that I have...that it was really, really, due to the relationship with my father.

I mean, I know that, but I haven't really, deeply KNOWN it, if you get what I mean...
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:00 pm
Get an axe and a big tree cut down said tree
Ask your father to help.
Get a Shovel and a pick dig out the stump.

Fill in the hole.

Shane knew.


When the two of you are finished, the two of you will be finished.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:01 pm
Yes, indifferent wasn't the right word, as we are never indifferent when
it comes to our parents, no matter how badly we're treated.

I think, deep down you've known that you weren't helpful enough
(in a way you were with your mother) because of your father's inabilities
to be a loving father - you just have to learn to accept it, which means
you're too hard on yourself.

Perhaps, the more you learn about him, the more forgiving you'll become
towards yourself.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:01 pm
dadpad wrote:
Get an axe and a big tree cut down said tree
Ask your father to help.
Get a Shovel and a pick dig out the stump.

Fill in the hole.

Shane knew.


When the two of you are finished, the two of you will be finished.


Lol!!!!


Live in apartment....
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:23 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Yes, indifferent wasn't the right word, as we are never indifferent when
it comes to our parents, no matter how badly we're treated.

I think, deep down you've known that you weren't helpful enough
(in a way you were with your mother) because of your father's inabilities
to be a loving father - you just have to learn to accept it, which means
you're too hard on yourself.

Perhaps, the more you learn about him, the more forgiving you'll become
towards yourself.


You know...this is resonating and here's how:



In my normal relationships, I am happy to help, and I do not get overwhelmed (generally, and if I do, it is because someone is being overwhelming, or because some other dynamic is operating)...because the focus is on THEM, and their needs. Sure, there is that ego stuff about feeling good if you can help and all that, but basically I am focussed on them.


I think with my dad, he (unwittingly) set up a relationship where he projected a lot of his **** onto me, and eventually I took that stuff on myself (that's called projective identification).

I knew this was ****, and I struggled to escape it, while still being trapped in it, and having a lot of feelings that were my father's, not mine.

Also, at base I find my reluctance to help him kind of narcissistic...you know, here is an old, miserable man who is frail and needy, and I am thinking all the time about myself...how his neediness scares me etc. Looked at logically, the worst was only gonna last a couple of years...but I felt like he would swallow me and drag me down into his world. As if he could by then! And I am very clear about hIS narcissism, which when I am with him, triggers mine especially badly.


The obsessive guilt stuff is HIS (though I have caught more than my share from him, sadly for both of us) ....and look how I couldn't react to the genuine need he had because I had to protect myself so much from his putting those needs onto me when I was way too small. Which he could not really do by the time he was old, but I still felt as if he could.

The narcissistic, overblown sense of responsibility is more his than mine, too...though I have my share of that, too.

And the blame is his.....he was blaming me for not looking after him well enough when mum died, right on his deathbed! When I was trying to do the stuff to help him let go...you know, you've been a good father, what are the things you have done in your life that you look back on with the most happiness/sense of achievement etc.

His answer to that question was a dig at me, too...which was kind of funny (he stayed true to himself!!!).....I work for the public sector, and, bless him, his pinnacle of pride was that he had never stooped so low as to work for the public sector...followed by that little fake gasp, and covering of your mouth thing you do when you want to pretend you didn't mean to say something.


Bless him..thing is, I was kind of gob smacked by his reply, so I said "What?"...and he did the whole thing again, complete with fake gasp!


It saddened me rather...you hope you may be beyond wanting to hurt others when you are in extremis...but he wasn't. The words were funny...the intent wasn't. The intent was sad and mean.


This is all so much psychobabble right now, but I will let it simmer under the surface and see what bobs up......
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:36 pm
Quote:
The obsessive guilt stuff is HIS (though I have caught more than my share from him, sadly for both of us) ....and look how I couldn't react to the genuine need he had because I had to protect myself so much from his putting those needs onto me when I was way too small. Which he could not really do by the time he was old, but I still felt as if he could.


Could that be your biggest fear, that you have caught more from him
than you wanted, resp. care to admit?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:49 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Quote:
The obsessive guilt stuff is HIS (though I have caught more than my share from him, sadly for both of us) ....and look how I couldn't react to the genuine need he had because I had to protect myself so much from his putting those needs onto me when I was way too small. Which he could not really do by the time he was old, but I still felt as if he could.


Could that be your biggest fear, that you have caught more from him
than you wanted, resp. care to admit?


Don't think so......I mean it is there.....and I am aware of it, though I don't think I have so clearly recognized it as HIS stuff before....but I have been plugging away at that stuff for some time.


Do you mean the fear in the nightmare is that I AM him?



Ponders....no, I don't think so. It is really about what I did/didn't do for him and how I can deal with that.

Lol...though, of course, it is partly his bequest that makes that hard! (There was not just that, btw)



It was awful for him, too..terrible. I was devastated when I went to see him in hospital when he was dying one day, and he thought I was my sister....he was kind of delirious, and he was very distressed, and saying how sorry he was that she was going to have to die, and how it was all his fault...on and on...blaming himself for mum's death as well.....on and on...


I know that, delirium aside, was how he really felt deep inside.....





Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


You can see how that is narcissistic as well?
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:52 pm
dlowan wrote:

Lol!!!!
Live in apartment....


(Uses best Maxwell Smart imitation)
Would you believe... a Butter knife and a geranium.
Laughter... the best medicine.


"Shane" is a 1949 western book by Jack Schaefer.
You might have studied it at school
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 12:00 am
dadpad wrote:
dlowan wrote:

Lol!!!!
Live in apartment....


(Uses best Maxwell Smart imitation)
Would you believe... a Butter knife and a geranium.
Laughter... the best medicine.


"Shane" is a 1949 western book by Jack Schaefer.
You might have studied it at school


nah..but I read it as an adult.



hey! it's 4.30 pm christmas ever here, and I just offered to cover the last half hour's duty, so I am in the Duty room...and there's aNEW MOUSE!!!!! It is simply wonderful.



(Mousing around the screen)

The old one sucked.


I suppose it's a christmas mouse.






Shane was good,, huh???
0 Replies
 
martybarker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 12:04 am
I have to go back and read some more, but I'm listening and I care....will be back soon
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 12:10 am
Is a digression suitable for this thread? I have nothing to offer other than strong physical activity seems to work for lots of folk.

Caught two mice in traps this morning. one little bugger was on the kitchen bench when I got up this morning so I set traps. Both were caught when got home at 3.00.

So... this evening I will honestly be able to say...

Not a creature was stirring not even a mouse.


Quote:
and there's aNEW MOUSE!!!!!


Your tax dollars at work? gotta get some benefit I suppose.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 12:12 am
dadpad wrote:
Is a digression suitable for this thread? I have nothing to offer other than strong physical activity seems to work for lots of folk.

Caught two mice in traps this morning. one little bugger was on the kitchen bench when I got up this morning so I set traps. Both were caught when got home at 3.00.

So... this evening I will honestly be able to say...

Not a creature was stirring not even a mouse.


Quote:
and there's aNEW MOUSE!!!!!


Your tax dollars at work? gotta get some benefit I suppose.



Digression?


It's all about the best laid plans o' mice and men, ya know. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 12:15 am
Deb, Just read this thread. Feeling your pain.

I'm not sure I understand why you're feeling guilty. Is it because you think you could have done more? If so, would the more have mattered? Would it have made a difference to him? Or would the more simply have taken more from you.

There are some people who are unsatisfiable. Some relationships that are unfixable. And all the mores won't matter.

What might have been different if you had done more?

I hope I'm understanding what you're saying. If I'm not, then just read my first sentence and ignore the rest.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 04:48 am
Deb--

Yeats talked of gyres. Personally, I think of spirals, but I've come to the conclusion that I can't "cure" my past but that every time I examine it I come closer to answers.

Early on you mentioned that you may be involved with a new relationship? Isn't it just practical common sense that your sub-conscience wants to examine the foundations of your life before adding a hefty super-structure?

Don't seek absolute wisdom--recognize that you've got another installment of a Character Building Experience.

Hold your dominion.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 05:13 am
Roberta wrote:
Deb, Just read this thread. Feeling your pain.

I'm not sure I understand why you're feeling guilty. Is it because you think you could have done more? If so, would the more have mattered? Would it have made a difference to him? Or would the more simply have taken more from you.

There are some people who are unsatisfiable. Some relationships that are unfixable. And all the mores won't matter.

What might have been different if you had done more?

I hope I'm understanding what you're saying. If I'm not, then just read my first sentence and ignore the rest.



Different?


I would have felt better!


(Not at the time...I would have felt awful!)


I am serious!

But...no, nothing would have made my father feel better, but I could have borne with him with more grace.



Noddy24 wrote:
Deb--

Yeats talked of gyres. Personally, I think of spirals, but I've come to the conclusion that I can't "cure" my past but that every time I examine it I come closer to answers.

Early on you mentioned that you may be involved with a new relationship? Isn't it just practical common sense that your sub-conscience wants to examine the foundations of your life before adding a hefty super-structure?

Don't seek absolute wisdom--recognize that you've got another installment of a Character Building Experience.

Hold your dominion.



Lol! I have so HAD it with character building experiences!


I know I can't cure it and I don't expect to.....but if I am having nightmares about it, I think it needs work.

I have to say that, since the last time I resolved it, and had the period without nightmares, it is much less in intensity and frequency.

I know what you mean about the spirals, though.


I am giving it a rest in my thoughts for a day or so, and letting this discussion simmer away in my unconscious. Good things often cook themselves quietly when I let that happen!!!
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 05:23 am
Deb--

I grant you, re-runs of Character Building Experiences are very exasperating--particularly at times of cyclical importance.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 05:26 am
Noddy24 wrote:
Deb--

I grant you, re-runs of Character Building Experiences are very exasperating--particularly at times of cyclical importance.



Yeah. And I can tell you, I am gonna defenestrate my goddam dominion!

Oh, btw....I am not in some terrible state here.


Sorry, I made that clear to someone in PM, but haven't said it here....this is mopping up stuff. I am not in some sort of crisis....I just decided to DO something and see what came of it.

Hence this thread.


I am fine.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 05:56 am
When the Lady Diane first met my father she asked him about any photos he might have (specifically including meself and my brothers when we were growing up) he responded to her that "NO he only had photos of people important in his life" and showed her photos of past friends of his that he no longer knew the names of and explained to her (Lady Diane) that he had trashed all the photos of his 4 sons (2 still living) I hear from him about every 2 years.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Dec, 2007 06:16 am
Mebbee the nightmares are you dealing with leftover stuff.

It is noted that many exchange students have terrible nightmares involving one or both parents featuring students killing or watching their parents killed, Psychologists have put this down to separation anxiety. It is supposed this is a kind of final cutting of the apron strings from being a depandant to being an independant being. It usually happens around the same time as the new language begins to click in.

Not sure if I have the whole picture there as I'm not professionally involved in that aspect. Still seemed appropriate.
0 Replies
 
 

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