old europe wrote:flaja wrote:They were illegal gatherings by illegal invaders. What else can they be called but riots?
Demonstrations.
You don't demonstrate in a country that is not yours. You riot and maraud. You don't demonstrate in a country into which you have illegally entered. You riot and maraud. You don't demonstrate in a county in which you have no right to be. You riot and maraud.
People see illegal immigration crackdowns as healthy.
Associated Press - December 30, 2007 1:15 PM ET
TULSA, Okla. (AP) - A new poll indicates illegal immigration is tied with education as Oklahoma's most pressing problem.
Of 745 likely voters surveyed Dec. 16-19 for the Oklahoma Poll, 16% named each of those issues as the state's No. 1 problem. It was the first time since mid-2004 that education was not alone in first place.
Health care costs, the economy and roads rounded out the top five.
Almost half of those surveyed said new state laws targeting illegal immigrants have had a positive impact on the state, and a similar number said they were in favor of even stronger legislation.
The poll, sponsored by the Tulsa World and television station KOTV, had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.59%.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Wow, only 16% of people in Oklahoma think immigration is the most pressing issue.
And less than half of the people in Oklahoma are in favor of the current law, or of stricter laws?
For a deep red southern state like Oklahoma, these are awfully encouraging poll numbers.
16%.... yeah.
Funny how you read into things. I read:
"Almost half of those surveyed said new state laws targeting illegal immigrants have had a positive impact on the state, and a similar number said they were in favor of even stronger legislation."
I wager the other half just didn't know one way or the other.
This thread is a perfect example of someone coming to a debate with a position so ideologically treasured but so intellectually neglected, that he cannot mount, at all, any sort of credible argument in its defense.
Anybody interested in modern slavery might want to check out the book;
Nobodies: Modern American Slave Labor, by John Bowe
http://www.everydaycitizen.com/2007/09/nobodies_modern_american_slave.html
oe,
Did you forget all of the protests where the people wanting either "amnesty" or a "path to citizenship" for those here illegally were flying MEXICAN flags?
It seems to me that if you want to be a citizen of one country you dont carry the flag of another country.
MM
My kids and I (along with many American citizens who feel as I do about compassion for immigrants) were at these marches. We had American flags.
The counter protests (the anti-immigrant folks) brought CONFEDERATE flags.
Kind of ironic... don't you think?
I bought a tomato today at $3.49 / pound.
Did anyone get a pay increase?
Sqinney,
You are being silly about a very serious topic.
If you are against the exploitation of fellow human beings... one way you can have an impact is by being a conscientious consumer. Consumers can have a great affect on stopping immoral behavior of employers, from the grapes of Cesar Chavez to the Child Labor laws instituted in the 1920s.
If you don't care about who is screwed in order to bring you cheap products... then go ahead, make light of the suffering and make fun of the people who are doing something to help the people who had the misfortune of being born without the privilege you take for granted.
ebrown_p wrote:MM
My kids and I (along with many American citizens who feel as I do about compassion for immigrants) were at these marches. We had American flags.
In other words you were collaborating with invaders.
I like to think that they were collaborating with us.
After all, it is we citizens who get to vote.
ebrown_p wrote:MM
My kids and I (along with many American citizens who feel as I do about compassion for immigrants) were at these marches. We had American flags.
The counter protests (the anti-immigrant folks) brought CONFEDERATE flags.
Kind of ironic... don't you think?
Are you saying that nobody carried Mexican flags at those protests and rallies?
No I am not saying that there were no Mexican flags.
I am saying that there were a lot of American flags. There were plenty of American citizens and legal immigrants marching as well as good people who happened to not be here legally.
There were also a group of friendly people from the "Legalize the Irish" organization who had Shamrocks.
I am also saying I find the Confederate flag to be offensive.
I was not being silly. I was paying $1.49 - $1.99 per pound a few months ago for the same tomatoes. My point being, did the worker get a $2 raise? I don't think so, and I agree with Burger King in saying that there is no way to make sure the pickers actually get the extra funds OR that the farm owner won't then charge a penny more per bath, sleeping spot and plate of food.
How would Burger King (Or McDonalds and the others that did join in) know where the extra penny goes? Are the farmers going to open their books to buyers? Would any manufacturer do so for their buyers? No.
If there are human rights violations it needs to be dealt with through the courts, laws, department of agriculture... In otherwords, put the responsibility where it belongs.
You asked if I would pay a penny more for my Big Mac. I just paid an extra $2. It didn't matter to Miguel.
You are missing the whole point Squinney. I am not asking for you to throw pennies out the window.
I am asking for you to support the effort by labor and human rights organizations to put pressure on both the growers, and the corporations that benefit from a corrupt system that exploits vulnerable workers.
If consumers get behind the effort to raise the wages and improve the conditions of farm workers, then the corporations and plantation owners will have to change.
Consumers are part of the system-- and history has proven that they have a unique ability to improve working conditions.
Consumers have a responsibility to change the exploitative industries they benefit from.
ebrown_p wrote:I like to think that they were collaborating with us.
After all, it is we citizens who get to vote.
I guess you've never heard of Chicago.
ebrown_p wrote:You are missing the whole point Squinney. I am not asking for you to throw pennies out the window.
I am asking for you to support the effort by labor and human rights organizations to put pressure on both the growers, and the corporations that benefit from a corrupt system that exploits vulnerable workers.
If consumers get behind the effort to raise the wages and improve the conditions of farm workers, then the corporations and plantation owners will have to change.
Consumers are part of the system-- and history has proven that they have a unique ability to improve working conditions.
Consumers have a responsibility to change the exploitative industries they benefit from.
Yet another person who has missed
the point.
Rather than being silly or hard-hearted Squinney has made an entirely valid point that even if one has all the good intent in the world towards exploited workers, efforts to coerce Burger King to agree to pay a penny a pound more for tomatoes do not, rationally, constitute a meaningful way to assist these workers.
You insist on this sloganeering blather that makes no real sense.
