Things fall apart.

Re: Things fall apart.


Would have to know the person well to decide that, boomerang.

But ...

Some people are simply more private, reserved, inhibited perhaps, about speaking about these things.
Sometimes they don't know how to talk about things that have hurt them, but feel quietly hurt, never-the-less.
(I'm rather like this myself.)
It can make things rather difficult for their (perhaps) more open or extroverted loved ones, I know ....

You are right about the "mind reading" thing -

Why can't my husband pick up that I am angry?

Shouldn't he just "know"???

Well, the answer is No, - I ASSUME that he gets it.

This may be a male,female thing.

That's why there are always two sides to the story.

And then a third side - what really is going on.

Well.... I'm a very private person MsO but I don't back down from confrontation. While I don't court it, I deal with it well. When someone expects me to be psychic I have no problem saying F/U.

It just makes me crazy when someone hits on that "you just don't get it" when they have never ever given you any idea that there was something to "get".

Sullyfish (welcome to A2K, by the way), I don't think it's a male/female thing. I think men are just as guilty. Maybe even more guilty.

I don't think people should always go around saying what they think or demanding what they want but fercryingoutloud - when something major is bugging you why wouldn't you say something before it drives you nuts?

I don't get it.

i don't really know what to say

so let's just sit back, take some time to think, and listen to some Dogs Eye View

Everything Falls Apart

Don't look now, things just got worse.
I'm drunk again I swear this crescent is just a curse.
Oh, I got here by killin' off all my friends.
I think I've figured it out: my life begins when the fun ends.


I got my wings, I'm free to go as I please.
Yeah, I got my wings now nothing really pleases me

'till everything falls apart
then I get to try to put it back together
yeah, it falls apart you can count on that
you can count on
bad, bad weather again.

Was it good? I don't remember much about it.
When things start to feel right
you can count on me to start to doubt it.
and the devil's not in the details, no the devil is in my pants
And it's shoot first apologize later.
Another quick and new sure shot romance
Well I got what I wanted now I don't want anything
Yeah, I got what I wanted, now my life is just boring.

'till everything falls apart
then I get to try to put it back together
yeah, it falls apart and you can count on that
you can count on that; bad weather this year.

I met God this afternoon ridin' on an uptown train
I said, "Don't you have better things to do?"
He said, "If I do my job what would you complain about?
So I let it go to Hell, now I'll have something to do.
He said, "I'll let it go to hell; does that sound familiar to you?"

Well everything falls apart
then I get to try to put it back together
yeah it falls apart and you can count on that
you can count on bad, bad weather
well, everything that falls apart, baby,
sooner or later gonna come back together
well, everything that comes together, hey,
sooner or later gonna fall apart again
and you can call it anything you want
they're gonna take it all away from you
you're gonna wake up, wake up, wake up,
scarecrow and find yourself lost again...

This thread reminds me of the wonderful novel "Things Fall Apart."

Chinua Achebe.

A must read!!

Btw--my husband was passive aggressive. I am a "hey, I see a problem, let's talk about it" person. The "hey, I can't stand to confront what's going on, so I'll repress it and blow up later" people find it hard to deal with my kind.

I so get this issue.

Ah, boomerang

I sense that something has happened, but I have no idea of what it was. I suspect, given your previous posts I've read about your life, that I might agree with your reaction to what ever it is ...

But it is very hard to discuss these things in the abstract, though I fully understand that sometimes it's not appropriate to post personal details online.

But, but .....

Sometimes people don't "say" because they don't feel confident enough in the relationship to say ....

Maybe something to do with perceived power imbalances, in some circumstances ...?

I have been on both sides of this fence. Pretty painful, either way.

Exactly the point I have been trying to communicate to martybaker.

Another thing is when people read intentions or feelings into what you say when thats not what you meant at all.

Ah, Dog's Eye View. I love that song.

Now, re the mind-reading. This is pretty standard operating procedure where I work.

I want the report.
What report?
You know, the report. The one you gave me.
I give you lots of reports.
The one with the graphs.
There are three of those.
Um, you sent it to me last week I think.
Oh, the XYZ report. Hang on.

With zero emotions at stake, with no relationship hanging by a thread, and with what should be precision (after all, there's only one XYZ report), what should be a two-line conversation at best turns into a six-line one and that's assuming that we actually get to the meeting of the minds instead of going through more hemming and hawing or of course getting interrupted every five seconds by a phone or Blackberry or whatever.

It's gotten better mainly because I know people better, so I can often cut to the six-line chase. It used to be more like a twelve-line chase. I also use a lot more body language now to indicate confusion. I cock my head like a puppy and furrow my brow. I even say things like What are we talking about? and try not to sound obnoxious while doing so.

So I understand the frustration.

Some of it is intellectual or emotional laziness. E. g. why should I have to explain things to you? You should just know. I don't have the time to be precise! Oddly, though, it seems that these same people have plenty of time (although they may grumble about it) to clean up the ensuing mess afterwards. That might be one approach, to simply point that out. As calmly as possible, long after the storm has passed. Just, I sometimes don't understand what you need. Can you help me out? Because I'd rather that we spent a little extra time clarifying things than that we spent a lot more time picking up broken pieces -- pieces that could have been kept intact if we had only taken a little extra time. I promise I will do my part to listen if you promise to do your part to talk.

Sometimes it is passive agressive... "If you are going to keep interupting me or finishing my sentences I can assume you know what I'm talking about and CAN read my mind. Therefore, I don't need to continue talking to you."

Sometimes it is frustration with the communication... "Stop turning it around to be about you. I'm trying to tell you how I feel. If you can't do that, I don't need to talk to you."

Sometimes it is feeling inadequate. "Previous conversations have made me feel lesser than you and I don't want to feel that way so I won't try to tell you how I feel now."

Sometimes it is just being tired of the effort required. "I have tried to tell you. See above."

I don't think it is always the unspoken. Sometimes it is the unheard.

Sometimes when something bothers me, I sit on it for a few days as well.

Mostly because , if I want to start a discussion about it (that could turn into a fight, or could involve me judging something the mister has done, or said, or bought. or.. or..or ).. I dont want to end up realizing that my issue with what ever happened was not something that really started with me. That it isnt something silly, or that I may have percieved incorrectly.

Basicaly, I need time to validate what happened, make sure that when I bring it up I can say it exactly how I feel I should, and have a solution already at hand for the problem.

Sometimes, I just want to make sure that I was not just over reacting to something because I was stressed about something else.. Or that it isnt something that I can fix without the 'discussion'

but, this only applies to 'some' issues..

I very much agree with msolga that it's hard to talk about it in the abstract. And that if it remains abstract, there are a lot of possible sides to it, not one answer.

I'm talking about people who get all pissed off when they have never given you reason to believe anything is wrong.
________________________________

Possibly a reaction to gossip...or a perception that you have missed their "clues"...?...or you didn't return a phone call...

People are funny. Sounds passive aggressive...which to me is just refusing to address things straight on and manipulating through some action designed to punish you. Few people outside family seem to actually take on the task of honest, constructive communication to work through hurt feelings or suspicions.

Yeah, I know that happens, and it's annoying.

I agree with Squinney's points too, though, that there are definitely situations in which the person who "doesn't know anything" has some responsibility for not knowing.

Hence the reluctance to give one all-encompassing answer in the abstract.

Interesting discussion though.

What this is "about", I guess, or what started it anyway is a little merry xmas - f/u email my sister dashed off to me and my siblings. It came as a bit of a surprise. I live 2,000 miles from my sister. We talk regularly but the f/u portion of her letter was something she had never brought up before. Basically she was pissed because I'm not a mind reader.

I immediately called her and apologized explaining that I had been wrapped up in a bit of drama lately (which she does know about) and that I know I haven't been very attentive to other things of late. I told her that she would have to spell things out - what did she need, what could I do.

The whole thing got me thinking about how a lot of people expect you to just "know" when somethings wrong and they need help.

Maybe I'm just better at admitting I need help than most people.....

I don't know.

I see.

Yeah, that sounds like it's to the annoying side of things.

Edgar said he got one of those from his sister recently too. 'Tis the season, or something.

Squinney made an excellent point:



Everyone sees the world through the focus of his/her own ethical system.

Consider the Family Dog, a creature with a bladder and bowels, a fondness for exercise and a need to keep track of what is going on in the neighborhood.

Spouse A feels that since s/he has gotten up from a comfortable chair three times that evening to serve as Doorkeeper for the Dog, that Spouse B should deal with Interruption #4.

Spouse B feels catering to the dog is someone else's job. Spouse A should be delighted to cater to the dog and to the Master/Mistress of the Dog.

Spouse B has had A Day and doesn't feel like spending an evening Dealing with Dog.

Spouse B feels s/he's terribly overworked and picked on and the least Spouse A can do is deal with the dog.


Spouse A thinks the dog has rights and the universe should be fair.

Spouse B thinks....or Spouse B's Inner Brat feels....

When the bottom line is "I don't wanna and I shouldn't hafta," communicating isn't going to do a lot of good.

We've had more than a few threads where people talk about how they don't mind giving help but dislike/hate/avoid asking for help.

I know I'm in that category.

I'm a fumer/steamer. Luckily, I only blow about once a decade, though I suspect things will change as I get further into menopause (I dragged a cabbie out of a cab last week - the times they are a-changin').

Sorry. I missed a page of developments when I wrote my last post.

I don't think that the Outraged Friends and Family expect you to be a mind reader. I think they expect you to recognize their primacy at the Center of the Universe.

This is especially difficult to accomplishment at a distance.