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Roger Clemens to Be Named in Mitchell Report

 
 
Gargamel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 09:28 am
Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:
Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:
yitwail wrote:
i didn't suspect Kevin Brown.....or Sheffield. i naively thought it was talent that made them standouts. Rolling Eyes


You're kidding, right?


I meant on the part about you not suspecting Brown or Sheffield. I think Brown was already caught anyway.

It is their talent that made them standouts, by the way. Or especially Sheffield.


I think that's an important point to consider, looking at all the names. We're most offended by the most talented users--Clemens, Bonds, because they've been the most lauded. But we don't care about Fernando Vina because he sucked **** (at least when he was with the Brewers, I remember). Thus we should remember that steroids or HGH isn't fully responsible for the great ones' accomplishments.

Or are we more justified in disdaining the guys who didn't need it, and used anyway?

Then you have your McGuires and Sosas. Guys who hit 20-30 homeruns per year and hovered around .250, decent players, who then suddenly launched themselves toward superstardom
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 09:36 am
Screw it, I just ordered a year's supply of GH.

Introducing, the 2008 New England Patriots rookie inside linebacker: ME.
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Gargamel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 09:38 am
Hell yeah.

I'm gong to use HGH to become the Packers' next KICKER. I'll be hitting 'em from 80 yards.
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 09:40 am
I used HGH, and just last night I knocked up all of South Boston.

Gotta love Canseco:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3154625

And what's up with Larussa and the other coach talking about how Canseco would openly speak about steroids, then say they had no knowledge he was doing them?
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 11:02 am
baddog1 wrote:
snood wrote:
Part of that denial was scapegoating Bonds as if he was the whole "steroid problem". It will be interesting to see if the public outcry wanes when some of the idols are named...


Snood: Your position on how Bonds has been portrayed concerning alleged steroid use is clear as shown on these threads; however it is not clear (or perhaps I missed it) about whether you believe or not if Bonds actually used steroids or any other enhancing (illegal) drug during his pro-career. What are your thoughts on this?


I think he probably did it.
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baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 11:47 am
snood wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
snood wrote:
Part of that denial was scapegoating Bonds as if he was the whole "steroid problem". It will be interesting to see if the public outcry wanes when some of the idols are named...


Snood: Your position on how Bonds has been portrayed concerning alleged steroid use is clear as shown on these threads; however it is not clear (or perhaps I missed it) about whether you believe or not if Bonds actually used steroids or any other enhancing (illegal) drug during his pro-career. What are your thoughts on this?


I think he probably did it.


Thanks for your honest thought.

I agree with you that Bonds has received much publicity over this & probably more than most. I wonder if he had not been in the homerun race, how much media hype would have been associated with him over this.

I watched Bonds when he entered as a Pirate, lanky at best and full of enthusiasm, desire and talent. When he 'grew', it seemed that his outlook on the game changed as well. Perhaps the media got to him, perhaps the hormonal changes, perhaps something else - I'm not sure. I for one wish that he'd made different choices and stayed away from the drugs. We'll never know, but it would've been interesting.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 03:20 pm
It really is hard to understand how no one at A2K thinks race has anything to do with the singleminded pursuit of Bonds. This is "the most hallowed record in sports" (according to Bob Costas) that Bonds broke. Besides the more obvious things like pounds of hate mail, the media scrutiny of Bonds' "chemical enhancements" has been relentless. When "Big Red" Mark McGuire had allegations raised and slunk away from the mike like a whipped dog, no one said much of anything but "for shame".

Does it really strain the credulity that much when I say that the combination of bond's race, along with his grating demeanor and the fact that he pursued this record in particular, added up to the disproportionate coverage?
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Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 03:42 pm
Barry's bad attitude, and baiting / bashing of reporters did him a lot more harm than his skin color.
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 03:47 pm
Obviously Bonds encouters racism, but no, I don't think it plays a major role in this whole thing. I'm sure there are plenty of people who look at him differently as a black athlete, but I'm not seeing it with the media storm.

He's been quoted saying some racist things. But guess that's ok, and beside the point here.

1) He's portrayed as the "villian," he acts like an "ass" to the media during interviews. I don't blame him, I'd do the same, but he doesn't have that bubbly personality Sosa has. Who, by the way, isn't white either.

2) People get emotionally attached to these stupid records, and don't want a "cheater" to break them. Because when they were kids in the '50's their heros like Mantle would never do such a thing like steroids. McGwire doesn't hold these records. Bonds broke his single season mark.

3) I'll say it again: Bonds...lied...to...the...jury. Didn't help his own cause here. If he came forward like Giambi, a couple different things would have happened: he wouldn't be up for all these charges, but at the same time, MLB probably would have suspended him from the game and/or found some way to keep him from breaking the record. So now he's judged as a liar.

McGwire isn't playing anymore, and he doesn't have any big records. So of course his name is downplayed. And if you watch sports, ESPN, ect., you'd recall McGwire was under a lot of sh!t just for having a bottle of LEGAL prohormones in his locker. That wasn't let go for a long time. And I'm the first person to say the whole steroids issue, especially with Bonds is grossly overblown in the media. It's laughable people are naive to think it's not common practice with athletes. But I don't see racism. You can compare him all you want to white athletes, but you can't compare him to ONE player, black or white, that's going/gone through the exact circumstances.

Brittney Spears is white, and she's all over the news/tabloids, looked at like a piece of trash. Maybe those media people reporting on her last bowel movement hate white people?
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 06:09 pm
I see what you're saying Slappy, and I am thinking about it. Actually it's kind of hard to know for sure what race does and doesn't affect, and the only real fools are those who think they can say with 100% certainty.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Dec, 2007 05:56 am
"...Mitchell's 411-page missive does place Bonds and his much-alleged abuses in context. He's one of roughly 80 current and former players mentioned as violators."

"In other words, there's no way to sort this all out. Baseball was corrupted because the people in charge allowed it to be corrupted. So Barry Bonds has to regard Mitchell's report with a measure of satisfaction. He wasn't the only cheater; he was merely the best of them."

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7560368?MSNHPHCP&GT1=10734
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Dec, 2007 11:05 am
Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:
jespah wrote:
I think you gotta look at anyone who had some sort of massive anger outburst (seemingly for little to no reason) or who seemed to be improving even as his career was on the wane, even if they aren't listed, and wonder whether they're next.

For Clemens...he can probably kiss the HOF good-bye.


I don't think fingering an athlete because of his temper is a good tactic. Steroids won't turn a calm person into a maniac. There's actually no solid proof of "roid rage." Those who are already prone to being aggressive, then take certain steroids, can definitely experience it...I think the ego that comes with the added strength & bulk is the main culprit.

And I will guarantee my left nut that Clemens gets into the HOF, and he 100% deserves it. He's the most dominating pitcher of modern baseball. What do they have on him? That he may have purchased GH in 2000-2001? He was already in the HOF by then.


Agreed that drugs aren't necessary for someone to act like a jerk or think that they're oh so delicate ego is being manhandled just because someone throws inside or looks at and admires their home run ball for five extra seconds. But we have seen that there are folks who take such things in stride and don't give a damn about them, and there are folks who fly off the handle. It does give one pause. Not condemning anyone but that kind of stuff is ridiculous and potentially dangerous. I don't think there's a great stretch or a wild goose chase to look at those people more carefully. Not everyone who stands up during a bench-clearing brawl, no. I mean the ones who are the straws who stir that drink.

As for the HOF, look at what happened to Marion Jones. While it is, of course, not the same sport, plus you have the whole Olympic amateur thing going on, the way the wind is blowing these days is that performance enhancement is simply not going to be viewed very kindly. And, I suspect that Congress will get involved. Then it will really get interesting, as they've got subpoena power and can push for a contempt of court ruling.

This is what Jason Giambi was concerned about, and rightfully so. I think he was wise enough to realize that he had to come clean there, which is why he's not going to jail.

And there's not just contempt out there. There's also, if any evidence is destroyed, obstruction of justice. Which is a felony. This is going to, of course (because Congress would be involved), be under Federal jurisdiction. Anyone getting caught at obstruction of justice will go to some beautiful happy places like Leavenworth. http://www.bop.gov/DataSource/execute/dsFacilityLoc

Right now, there really is some useful, admissable (assuming it is authenticated) evidence out there. There's testimony. There are cancelled checks. There are receipts. There are internal managerial memoranda.

Put Congress on this (and because next year is an election year there may be some delay in getting this done) and you will see more coming out. While Mitchell advised to not punish people, Selig will go after the active players. And Congress naturally isn't bound by what either Selig or Mitchell say. I don't want to see players in jail. But it may very well happen.
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Dec, 2007 11:40 am
Snood, I agree, nobody can't say 100% either way. I just don't think it was one of the major factors.

Jes, do you really think they're going to go after and arrest players? If so, Selig is an ass. I wouldn't think they're going to go after the users, they usually try to track down the sellers. It would be a huge waste of time and money to arrest guys for using steroids.

Marion Jones lost a medal because she was on steroids for the one(or multiple?) events she won. With Clemens & Bonds, you're talking over a decade of being absolutely dominating before any evidence of drugs. Those two guys are just ridiculous ballplayers, and I think sports writers who don't vote them in are self-righteous douchebags. However I guess I see the argument both ways, but I don't like making examples of people.

Talking to my friend last night that got up to AAA(last stage before the majors), and this whole thing kind of pisses him off. He never touched steroids, and wonders if things could have been different for him if it was all natural. Can see his point. And he played with about 30 of the guys on the list.

Gossip: his buddy who's a MLB scout has supposedly physically seen Nomah sticking himself. Good times.
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Dec, 2007 12:16 pm
I dunno re arrests. But if there is enough of a drug ring and evidence is tampered with or destroyed -- or if organized crime is tied to it -- all bets are off.
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baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2007 12:01 pm
Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:
...Talking to my friend last night that got up to AAA(last stage before the majors), and this whole thing kind of pisses him off. He never touched steroids, and wonders if things could have been different for him if it was all natural. Can see his point. And he played with about 30 of the guys on the list...


Thanks for bringing this point up slappy. It's been my major contention about the entire deal. Your friend is of course correct, but I'm not hearing anything about it among the sports-media. Likely won't either, for many are former players. Too bad for your friend - it's a raw deal!
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Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 09:44 pm
Clemens' lawyers studying report

NEW YORK (AP) -- Roger Clemens' lawyers are investigating accusations in the Mitchell Report that say the star pitcher used steroids and human growth hormone.

Clemens was the biggest name in this month's report by former Senate majority leader George Mitchell that detailed widespread use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. The seven-time Cy Young Award winner has repeatedly denied using steroids or HGH.

"On Roger's behalf, we are investigating the allegations about him contained in the Mitchell Report," Clemens' attorney, Rusty Hardin, said Wednesday in a statement. "To our surprise, we have identified several people who logic dictates the Mitchell team should have talked to but did not. That's troubling. We are asking questions and we encourage the news media to do the same."

Clemens plans to be interviewed for an episode of CBS' 60 Minutes that is scheduled to air Jan. 6. The pitcher will be available to answer questions from other reporters that day in Texas, said Hardin's spokesman, Joe Householder.
(source)

you can watch his video denial here...
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Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Dec, 2007 09:52 pm
"Everything's bigger in Texas"

RH
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Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jan, 2008 08:56 pm
http://images.sportsbybrooks.com/6/5/6520c0130e76b878231b774d58fc1671_clemenstookitinthebutt.jpg
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Gargamel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jan, 2008 09:35 am
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jan, 2008 10:05 am
Roger just went all in...

This new lawsuit is going to test the methods of the report.
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