Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas?

Foxfyre wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
I sorta thought you would baddog. It was Intrepid's take that surprised me. From our past interactions I had thought that he approved of secular government and disapproved of disparaging others on religious grounds.

In my book there is a major difference between promoting one's favorite greeting and rudely knocking others attempts at civility which is what the video promoted.

I do disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds. Fortunately most of us also don't get our nose bent out of shape over a song with religious content, and we can enjoy it and agree with it or disagree with it without turning it into a big deal politically correct or social issue.

I agree with Foxfyre's take on this subject.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

You've got to be kidding. Looking at religions across the globe and their behaviors over the centuries, it's hard to demonstrate a more isolationist and intolerant thought process anywhere.

You must hang around with some very unusual people of faith. Either that or you're not recognizing the difference between what people say, and what they are really thinking.

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She is speaking of today. Not centuries ago. You can't label everything over what happened in the past. If that were true, Canadians would not think much of the U.S. since they attacked our country in the 19th century. Perhaps some are more forgiving than others. Smile

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Foxfyre wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
I sorta thought you would baddog. It was Intrepid's take that surprised me. From our past interactions I had thought that he approved of secular government and disapproved of disparaging others on religious grounds.

In my book there is a major difference between promoting one's favorite greeting and rudely knocking others attempts at civility which is what the video promoted.

I do disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds. Fortunately most of us also don't get our nose bent out of shape over a song with religious content, and we can enjoy it and agree with it or disagree with it without turning it into a big deal politically correct or social issue.

I agree. I do think that most people of faith live quiet fulfilling lives and keep their religious practices private. Then there's the lunatic fringe...

I was once asked why I sing Christmas carols if I don't believe in the divinity of Christ. I responded that I enjoy the season, enjoy the songs, and sing them with joy. I also sing along with "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" and have never taken LSD. I can be moved by the music and what it means to me whether I accept the message as fact or myth.

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Good post JPB. I think you have made an excellent evaluation and choice.

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I don't think it bears getting caught up on really, the essence of the statement is a feeling of good will but it's not like I say to people, "Merry Christmas", because and only because you're a Christian and if you're not I hope you have a horrible couple of weeks. Most of the people I say it to aren't even religious. You get yourself in a bit of a tangle if you worry too much about what othrs will think over such a simple gesture but rosborne, that story was funny.

Merry Christmas everyone.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

You've got to be kidding. Looking at religions across the globe and their behaviors over the centuries, it's hard to demonstrate a more isolationist and intolerant thought process anywhere.

You must hang around with some very unusual people of faith. Either that or you're not recognizing the difference between what people say, and what they are really thinking.

But then most people of faith, certainly most Christians, have long abandoned the deontological ethics of their ancestors and live in peace with other peaceful people. I probably should have targeted my comment to people of faith in the USA and various other places as religious intolerance is indeed alive and well in some places in the world, but almost always among certain people of non-Christian beliefs (since we're talking about Christmas). Just looking at the ethnic makeup of our own multi-cultural area, there are no doubt Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, nonreligious and probably others among my neighbors and acquaintances and we all get along fine.

The most intolerant people here seem to be the anti-religionists, as distinguished from the pleasant and accommodating nonreligious, who rarely miss an opportunity to denigrate or criticize people of faith, either implied or overtly, and/or presume to tell them what they should believe or how they should behave or what they should not appreciate in a video of some guys singing about Christmas. Smile

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rosborne979 wrote:

The simple answer to this song that says, "It's called Christmas", is to say yes, it is called Christmas, IF someone is talking about Christmas. But if someone is not talking about Christmas, then it's not called Christmas. And if someone is referring to multiple holidays at once (like christmas and new year), then collectively calling them Holidays is simply the best way to say it.

The other day I was on the phone with a business associate, and (with this thread ringing in my mind) I wished him a merry christmas. There was silence on the line, so I quickly added "unless you don't celebrate christmas, in which case, happy holidays". He said, "Yeh, we're jewish, so we don't do christmas, but merry christmas to you". So while thinking, "I don't celebrate christmas either because it has no religious significance to me", I simply added, "and Happy New Year", and he said, "Yeh, that too.". What a mess. How I wish I had just said Happy Holidays (like I usually do) and avoided the whole conversational fiasco.

From now on, unless I want to wish someone a specific wish, I'm sticking with Happy Holidays. It allows me to cover all holidays including new year, with one wish. And the only people it seems to offend are people who are already so self-righteous about their own religion that they need to have it paraded around in front of everyone.

So who was the gracious one? You, wishing him a cheerful, heartfelt Merry Christmas regardless of what Christmas does or does not mean to you? Or him making you feel uncomfortable because you extended a customary seasonal greeting to him? I don't celebrate Chanukkah or Kwanza either, but I certainly return a Happy Chanukkah or Happy Kwanza when it is expressed to me and enjoy participating in somebody's celebration if even for a moment.

And if somebody says Happy Holidays to me, that's also fine.

But I still want to be able to say Merry Christmas without being made to feel that it is somehow politically incorrect. For me the season is Christmas. Which, in my opinion, is what the song expresses.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The most intolerant people here seem to be the anti-religionists, as distinguished from the pleasant and accommodating nonreligious.

The Anti-Religious pretty much exist as a response to the evangelists and other religious extremists who want to push their religion on everyone else. Unfortunately, we see a lot of this religious extremism, and some of it is very well organized, like the creationism/ID push into public science education.

Apparently the few religious extremists are making the bulk of the religious look bad.

And I think there is another factor at work as well, as I mentioned on another thread...

rosborne979 wrote:

In the United States, it's "politically correct" (almost a necessity) to assail any group which is perceived to be "on top".

I think this is a social behavior which has its origins in the idea of a republic, in which minorities are protected from the "tyranny of the majority".

Christians claim to be on top, and are perceived to be on top by many, so they are open to the social reflex.

Once Islam grabs the high ground, then it'll become politically correct to assail them instead. It's the price you pay for being on top (in the US).

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Foxfyre wrote:

So who was the gracious one? You, wishing him a cheerful, heartfelt Merry Christmas regardless of what Christmas does or does not mean to you? Or him making you feel uncomfortable because you extended a customary seasonal greeting to him?

He wasn't trying to make me feel uncomfortable, he didn't say anything. When addressing someone else, I prefer to address their best wishes, not mine. And if I don't know their beliefs, then a general statement covers it.

Foxfyre wrote:

But I still want to be able to say Merry Christmas without being made to feel that it is somehow politically incorrect. For me the season is Christmas.

And for other people it's not christmas. If the season means christmas to you, then wish yourself a Merry Christmas. And wish others something that compliments them.

Maybe you would feel differently about that song if it was an in-your-face song by a jewish band called "It's called Hanukkah, get over it".

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....and, those Jewish people would have every right to do so!

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Uh, no, I don't think so and I'm Jewish.

I find the idea of the in your face stuff to be rude and condescending, whether it's directed at me or somehow directed away from me but on my behalf.

It's just boorish.

But to me it's also boorish for others to believe that I'm somehow just like them. I'm not. I'm not asking for special treatment save for the fact that not everyone is the same. It's not just that I'm not like you. It's that steve isn't and joe isn't and mary isn't and shyam isn't and mahmoud isn't and nguyen isn't and louise isn't and caren isn't and you get the idea.

There are two very open greetings that can be given. Those are Seasons Greetings and Happy Holidays. It is a new season -- hey, let's greet the solstice and acknowledge that the world is still spinning on its axis! Yay! And yeah, there's more than one holiday. Not just Christmas, etc. but also New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. It's holidays, plural, because it really is holidays, plural, for everyone. But that's because of the flip of a calendar page.

I found the song to be outrageously offensive. I haven't spoken up before because I know someone will just tell me to get over it. That Christians are the majority in the US and Canada and everyone's just trying to be friendly and I shouldn't get my hackles up and hey we got you this nice menorah so quit bitching about it and be happy and go spin a dreidel somewhere, because without our kind say so you wouldn't be able so.

My first instinct was to not even respond and continue this discussion, because I find it more than a little silly for otherwise reasonable people to think that their own personal religion's greeting is somehow universal and is universally acceptable to all. There are others like me. Not just Jews, but atheists and Wiccans and Muslims, etc. and our belief or nonbelief systems are not identical and being tagged with the same broad brush of Merry Christmas is as absurd as being given a size 8 sweater and expecting everyone in the world to fit into it.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
So who was the gracious one? You, wishing him a cheerful, heartfelt Merry Christmas regardless of what Christmas does or does not mean to you? Or him making you feel uncomfortable because you extended a customary seasonal greeting to him?

He wasn't trying to make me feel uncomfortable, he didn't say anything. When addressing someone else, I prefer to address their best wishes, not mine. And if I don't know their beliefs, then a general statement covers it.

Foxfyre wrote:
But I still want to be able to say Merry Christmas without being made to feel that it is somehow politically incorrect. For me the season is Christmas.

And for other people it's not christmas. If the season means christmas to you, then wish yourself a Merry Christmas. And wish others something that compliments them.

Maybe you would feel differently about that song if it was an in-your-face song by a jewish band called "It's called Hanukkah, get over it".

No, I would not feel differently about a group singing about Hannukah and why they celebrate it and what it means to them. I would enjoy that very much actually. When I directed a church choir, we did some Jewish music that tied in with certain Biblical themes. It was good stuff.

My sister taught choral music for close to three decades back when school children were allowed to sing the great Christmas hymns and religious renderings (Handel's Messiah, Bach, Mendelssohn, etc.) along with the more secular music written for the season. They were preparing their Christmas concert one year when she became aware that there were some Jewish students in the choir. She asked if any other religious faiths were represented too, and when there were not, she went out to find some music appropriate for Channukah and included that in the program. All the students fully enjoyed doing all the music - Christian, Jewish, and secular. Had there been other faiths represented, she would have done her best to find something for them too.

And, in my opinion, that's the way it should be.

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Merry Christmas and a Happy Boxing Day to ya, eh, hoser?

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Intrepid wrote:

....and, those Jewish people would have every right to do so!

And so do the christians. We're not talking about rights. Of course they have the right.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
....and, those Jewish people would have every right to do so!

And so do the christians. We're not talking about rights. Of course they have the right.

But knowing how Jespah feels about it, there is no way I would say Merry Christmas to him/her because my intention is not to offend. So those who are offended by this kind of stuff do get preferential treatment from me.

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I'm a her. Smile

And, thank you.

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Merry Christmas Jespah. I would also be more than willing to celebrate Chanukah with you, but it would be silly for me to wish you a happy one, since I'm not Jewish.

It is simply an expression of the season and where come from, it certainly isn't meant to offend. In fact most here would be offended by those who were offended by it.

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cjhsa wrote:

Merry Christmas Jespah. I would also be more than willing to celebrate Chanukah with you, but it would be silly for me to wish you a happy one, since I'm not Jewish.

It is simply an expression of the season and where come from, it certainly isn't meant to offend. In fact most here would be offended by those who were offended by it.

This mentality is the exact problem.

The ideaa that: I have a way of expressing good esteem during Christmas. I do it where I come from, and it's okay. It should be okay if I say it to someone else. If they don't recieve it well, it's not my problem.

It's littered with poor assumptions.

T
K
O

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Foxfyre wrote:

The most intolerant people here seem to be the anti-religionists, as distinguished from the pleasant and accommodating nonreligious, who rarely miss an opportunity to denigrate or criticize people of faith, either implied or overtly, and/or presume to tell them what they should believe or how they should behave or what they should not appreciate in a video of some guys singing about Christmas.

I'm sure your distinction between evil anti-religionists and nice non-religious aligns convieniantly with your arguments.

I can't tell you want to believe, but don't think I can't tell you have to behave when it comes to interaction with me. As for the video, it's hate propoganda guised in a cute pop song. I'm not going to told to appriciate it, or be told there's something wrong with me because it's offesive.

T
K
O

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Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas?

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