Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas?

- Intolerance does not, in and of itself, infer a negative value judgment.

- Modern religion in the Western World is a form of willful ignorance.

- Irrational intolerance is an entirely different kettle of fish as compared to rational intolerance.

- I have a rational intolerance of religious ignorance.

- Satirizing the willful ignorance of religion is an essential social service.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
I sorta thought you would baddog. It was Intrepid's take that surprised me. From our past interactions I had thought that he approved of secular government and disapproved of disparaging others on religious grounds.

In my book there is a major difference between promoting one's favorite greeting and rudely knocking others attempts at civility which is what the video promoted.

I do disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds. Fortunately most of us also don't get our nose bent out of shape over a song with religious content, and we can enjoy it and agree with it or disagree with it without turning it into a big deal politically correct or social issue.

You have enough straw in that post to build a manger scene. Not one person here was upset over religious content in the song.

Here are a couple of videos that I find enjoyable. What do you think?

Traditional
Secular

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Foxfyre's posts are myopically predicable if not vaguely amusing.

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mesquite wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
I sorta thought you would baddog. It was Intrepid's take that surprised me. From our past interactions I had thought that he approved of secular government and disapproved of disparaging others on religious grounds.

In my book there is a major difference between promoting one's favorite greeting and rudely knocking others attempts at civility which is what the video promoted.

I do disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds. Fortunately most of us also don't get our nose bent out of shape over a song with religious content, and we can enjoy it and agree with it or disagree with it without turning it into a big deal politically correct or social issue.

You have enough straw in that post to build a manger scene. Not one person here was upset over religious content in the song.

Here are a couple of videos that I find enjoyable. What do you think?

Traditional
Secular

No straw man. Just responding to those who seem to think those of us who enjoyed the initial video starting the thread are somehow less acceptable or inferior to those who are apparently offended by it, and rather than accepting the content for what it is, want to make it into a social issue re political correctness and therefore bad.

As for the two videos you posted, I enjoyed both of them very much. (My own rather extensive collection of Christmas music has a lot of secular stuff in it.) Neither of the videos you linked had a lead in, however, at least shown on the video. Despite some taking the opportunity to do a little Christian or religious bashing, the lead in to the "Christmas with a Capital "C" video seems to be the point of consternation here and, according to what you previously posted, is considered objectionable by you and perhaps others. As I previously posted (twice), I thought the opening joke was borderline poor taste unless it was qualified by conversation preceding it which we don't have.

Otherwise it was clearly advocacy for Christians being able to use "Merry Christmas" during their celebration of Christmas and why that is the appropriate greeting. And that message would not have been as clearly expressed without the lead in. You can disagree with the content of the song, and nobody says you have to like the way it is presented.

But for what it is, I don't think it is objectionable.

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The fish bites.

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Chumly wrote:

The fish bites.

Bite me Chumly.

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Mandatory nutrition labelling is now required on most prepackaged food!

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Even the Christmas pie. Merry Christmas, Chumly.

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Happy Winter Solstice Foxfyre!

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Intrepid wrote:

Yes, political correctness has, indeed, gone mad. Not just at this time of year, but every day of the year in every sector of society. Gone are the simple, tolerant days of old.

I think that everyone should be able to greet as they see fit given their comfort level. I just don't think that one greeting should be replaced by another just because there is a segment of society that does not embrace a particular holiday in the spirit that it began.

Exactly. So why get so upset when people don't say Merry Christmas and say Happy Holidays? What? Happy Holidays and Seasons Greetings it not acceptable? Because you and that video you posted gave me the impression that they're not.

People everywhere and saying, "Pfft, political correctness has gone mad. I'm going to say Merry Christmas and if they don't like it, they can go to Hell." Great. But when somebody decides to say, Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings, people get all indignant... "Political correctness gone mad! Why can't we say Merry Christmas? What is wrong with these Nazis?"

You know where everybody keeps getting this "political correctness gone mad" attitude from?

Hacks like Bill O'Reilly. http://mediamatters.org/items/200601130013

There was never any political correctness gone mad in the first place. No, what it was, was that some hack in the media decided to make controversy where there isn't any. And it's repeated every single year. Yet every single year, you hear the majority of people complaining about it, despite the fact that nearly everybody says "Merry Christmas".

It's now gotten to the point in the UK where politicians are now discussing "Christianophobia". What next? Will they pass special laws to protect Christianity? Will it give the religion even more privelege than it already has in this country? If I was feeling really paranoid, and I mean really paranoid (mental institution level paranoia), I'd say it was a devious Christian plot to pass off some laws to further force Christianity into our lives.

Of course, you would say the opposite.

Once the law is passed, a school will be forced to do Nativities every single Christmas, because if they decide not to, a particularly nasty piece of work can then say... "Hey, Christians are being persecuted. You're not doing a Nativity scene because of this PC bullcrap. We demand that our Nativity be performed and recognised, because not doing so impinges on our ability to celebrate Christmas." And the law would be on his side and hey presto! The school will be forced to do Nativities every single Christmas because of the law and an extra paranoid Christian.

Or maybe, just maybe, all these incidents are isolated, individuals incidents with at least one similar theme to them. It might be a very slim theme, like a Christian was involved in both incidents. It might have more themes in common. But the point is, maybe it's just a few isolated incidents and somehow the media is blowing it out of proportion and you guys are helping to blow it out of proportion with all this indignancy over a trend that doesn't exist.

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A careful reading of the thread, Wolf, shows that those who like to say Merry Christmas have no problem with other seasonal greetings. It is some of those who have dubious opinions of Christians and/or other people of faith who seem to have a problem with Christians or others preferring "Merry Christmas" to other seasonal greetings. I (and I think the others who like the song) do not have a problem with "Happy Holidays".

The song that started the thread expressed a strong sentiment that, for the singers, the season is Christmas and for them the greeting is "Merry Christmas" (with a capital "C")

And I think that for most of us, all we've been saying is that we would like to be able to say "Merry Christmas" anywhere and to anybody without it being deemed an inappropriate expression.

(For the record, I have never heard the "O'Reilly rant" that has been referred to here, and I didn't know about it until I entered this thread. I didn't know so many A2K people watched Fox News.)

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You're right Wolfy, in this case it's perhaps leveled the playing field to some small degree by potentially reducing the integration of government and religion.

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Foxfyre wrote:

A careful reading of the thread, Wolf, shows that those who like to say Merry Christmas have no problem with other seasonal greetings. It is some of those who have dubious opinions of Christians and/or other people of faith who seem to have a problem with Christians or others preferring "Merry Christmas" to other seasonal greetings. I (and I think the others who like the song) do not have a problem with "Happy Holidays".

And a careful look at the world around me shows that it is those who have problems with other seasonal greetings that are the intolerant ones and they're masking it under a veil of being attacked and complaints of persecution and overrampant PC.

Quote:

The song that started the thread expressed a strong sentiment that, for the singers, the season is Christmas and for them the greeting is "Merry Christmas" (with a capital "C")

And the song was highly inappropriate. It sounded aggressive, smug and I find it highly offensive. It had very little to do with what you believe, as in, having the right to say Merry Christmas. They were clearly having a go at the woman for not saying Merry Christmas, not for preventing them from saying Merry Christmas.

It's her business to say one or the other and she shouldn't have some guys jumping at her for saying a catch-all greeting.

I mean, just imagine if she hadn't said Happy Holidays. Imagine she'd said, Merry Christmas, and the singers then started going on about Hannukah and being all indignant. That is what you're complaining about. Yet when it's Christians getting all indignant about "Happy Holidays" you thought it was perfectly A-OK.

Quote:

And I think that for most of us, all we've been saying is that we would like to be able to say "Merry Christmas" anywhere and to anybody without it being deemed an inappropriate expression.

And you can.

Quote:

(For the record, I have never heard the "O'Reilly rant" that has been referred to here, and I didn't know about it until I entered this thread. I didn't know so many A2K people watched Fox News.)

Oh, I heard about it from the Daily Show. Then after watching Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, I got interested in the Stand Alone Complex idea they talked about and knowing Bill O'Reilly, I wondered whether this "War on Christmas" idea was a real life example of a Stand Alone Complex.

As far as I can tell, yes it is.

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Foxfyre wrote:

mesquite wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
I sorta thought you would baddog. It was Intrepid's take that surprised me. From our past interactions I had thought that he approved of secular government and disapproved of disparaging others on religious grounds.

In my book there is a major difference between promoting one's favorite greeting and rudely knocking others attempts at civility which is what the video promoted.

I do disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds.

I believe most people of faith disapprove of disparaging others on religious grounds. Fortunately most of us also don't get our nose bent out of shape over a song with religious content, and we can enjoy it and agree with it or disagree with it without turning it into a big deal politically correct or social issue.

You have enough straw in that post to build a manger scene. Not one person here was upset over religious content in the song.

Here are a couple of videos that I find enjoyable. What do you think?

Traditional
Secular

No straw man. Just responding to those who seem to think those of us who enjoyed the initial video starting the thread are somehow less acceptable or inferior to those who are apparently offended by it, and rather than accepting the content for what it is, want to make it into a social issue re political correctness and therefore bad.

Yep pure straw. When you misrepresent a position in order to shoot it down, that's straw and you have just added to the pile.

Foxfyre wrote:

As for the two videos you posted, I enjoyed both of them very much. (My own rather extensive collection of Christmas music has a lot of secular stuff in it.) Neither of the videos you linked had a lead in, however, at least shown on the video. Despite some taking the opportunity to do a little Christian or religious bashing, the lead in to the "Christmas with a Capital "C" video seems to be the point of consternation here and, according to what you previously posted, is considered objectionable by you and perhaps others. As I previously posted (twice), I thought the opening joke was borderline poor taste unless it was qualified by conversation preceding it which we don't have.

More straw. This was a constructed video with each piece intentionally selected. The problem was not just the Jewish slur at the beginning. The song was directed at what you call the "lead in", the counter lady's good will gesture of "Happy Holidays". For that gesture she is ostracized and proselytized to. As I pointed out yesterday, intermixed with the song is inflammatory stroking such as Let me tell you something if you think you are going to stop me from saying it because it offends you I got a flash for you. PUT A HELMET ON!!, even though the lyrics to the song do just that in reverse to the counter lady.

Foxfyre wrote:

Otherwise it was clearly advocacy for Christians being able to use "Merry Christmas" during their celebration of Christmas and why that is the appropriate greeting. And that message would not have been as clearly expressed without the lead in. You can disagree with the content of the song, and nobody says you have to like the way it is presented.

If it was merely advocacy for Christians to be able to use their preferred terminology then they should have used a lead in that fit that perceived problem. Nope, as presented, the song had nothing to do with what Christians can say. It had all to do with what they want others to say.

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I was buying gifts the other day and I brought some change with me to and out to charities. As I wlked into Target, there was a man from the Salavation Army (a noteworthy christian org) and he was playing christmas songs on a steel drum. I was very pleased with his extra effort so I gave him a few dollars and told him "Happy Holidays." He smiled and kept playing.

The same day I went to Borders books, and as I entered I said "Happy Holidays" to the Salvation army person there, I recieved a grimace, that was however until I pulled out my change. After that, it was all smiling teeth. I gave about 3 quarters and was on my way.

The reactions of these two people reminded me a lot of this thread.

I was also waching Anderson Cooper 360 last night and I saw a segment talking about the "War on Santa," which was a few stories about how there has been various acts of valdalism across the United States having to do with Santa. This included a man in a car throwing a brick at a firefighter dressed as Santa then driving off, a elderly man in a shopping mall getting "touched" inappropriately by a woman, another mall's santa workshop getting vandalized with messeges about the real meaning of the season, and lastly the "Santa = Satan" leaflets found all over a playground. Not all of the stories were about religious backlash, but still it's a part of the landscape.

Another fun story I can briefly describe is my Aunt's Christmas party. She is an ESL teacher at a language institute in San Diego. Many of her cowroker's are from around the world, many additionally are muslims. so my aunt invited them over for a Christmas party, and they came with their families and all the children decorated the tree. My Aunt had lots of craft supplies and at the end of the evening, her tree had ornaments reflecting several different religions as well as other imagery that was not related to religion (such as images associated with different countries). they took a photo in front of the tree and mailed it as a card to my family. It read: "Happy Holidays."

I'm looking back in this thread, and Foxfyre, can you direct me to a single post where someone other than a christian invoked the PC argument? I don't recall anyone but you and other christians using this line of reasoning.

T
K
O

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Diest TKO wrote:

I'm looking back in this thread, and Foxfyre, can you direct me to a single post where someone other than a christian invoked the PC argument? I don't recall anyone but you and other christians using this line of reasoning.

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Diest TKO wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
Merry Christmas Jespah. I would also be more than willing to celebrate Chanukah with you, but it would be silly for me to wish you a happy one, since I'm not Jewish.

It is simply an expression of the season and where come from, it certainly isn't meant to offend. In fact most here would be offended by those who were offended by it.

This mentality is the exact problem.

The ideaa that: I have a way of expressing good esteem during Christmas. I do it where I come from, and it's okay. It should be okay if I say it to someone else. If they don't recieve it well, it's not my problem.

It's littered with poor assumptions.

T
K
O

Take YOUR ASSumptions and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. TKO.

Anyone who takes offense at me wishing them a "Merry Christmas" will then get my second offering, which is "Merry F--king Christmas a**hole".

BTW, when you grow up, you might want to come back and visit. Until then, cya.

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cjhsa wrote:

Take YOUR ASSumptions and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. TKO.

They aren't MY assumptions, they are yours, so you can put them in your own crevices.

cjhsa wrote:

BTW, when you grow up, you might want to come back and visit. Until then, cya.

Is this an atempt to ask/demand me to leave A2K? You lack both the authority and the intellectual potency to get me to retreat. Laughing

Mata ashita.

T
K
O

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cjhsa wrote:

Anyone who takes offense at me wishing them a "Merry Christmas" will then get my second offering, which is "Merry F--king Christmas a**hole".

So then (by YOUR standard) I should tell a lot of people "Happy f--king Holidays a**hole" shouldn't I?

Your standards suck.

T
K
O

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So does your attitude. Your avatar speaks volumes.

Grow up punk.

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Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas?

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