Another question for the right and left

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Would you, as a conservative or liberal, ever consider accepting a policy or program that the other side advocates because that policy/program can achieve a goal that your ideology has?

For example: I am a conservative but I am in favor of a national public school system, one with a national K-12 curriculum, nationally standardized textbooks and teacher qualifications. Such a school system is something that a liberal could support (empowering the government), but it is something I support as a matter of national security; as a former private school teacher and current tutor of public school students, I know that (at least in Florida) the education system we have now does not work. And the U.S. cannot maintain its status as a world superpower if our citizens cannot read, get jobs in an highly technical economy or understand the rudiments of citizenship in a democratic republic.

Another example: I am in favor of environmental policies that could be used to combat global warming. But, (with a bachelor's degree in biology) I don't believe that global warming is legitimate science. I support things like alternative energy sources and organic food production and public mass transportation as ways to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, to save natural resources for future use and ultimately to save money- all conservative goals.

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Sure. Anyone who can't accept any program offered by the other side is probably not being honest with himself. I was in favor of the McCain/Kennedy proposal on immigration. That may be the only time I agreed with Kennedy on anything, but it looked like the best we would ever see.

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only a fool would reject success because it came from the wrong direction.

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I am socially very liberal, and economically very conservative. The kinds of things that I want can and does often come from one party or another.

The problem is, that my main focus is for smaller, less intrusive government. Whether from the right or the left, politicians sure know how to fritter away taxpayer money!

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Flaja, your question is a bit misleading. You ask about advocating a position the other side advocates-- then you give an example of advocating a position that your side advocates. Most conservatives advocate national education standards and teacher accountability. Many liberals oppose these programs as draconian and ineffective.

You are simply a conservative advocating a conservative position. Nothing special here.

As far as the small, non-intrusive government position that conservatives say they represent... well look at the positions that most coservatives take that contradict this.

- Conservatives wan't government to control a woman's decision to have an abortion.
- Conservatives support more government rights to wiretap citizens without judicial oversight.
- Conservatives want to deny states the right to allow same sex marriage.
- And now many conservatives (including a couple presidential candidates) are supporting a national id for all citizens.

You are pointing out the inherent contradictions in the modern conservative movement.

If the point of this thread is to support positions that are not normally held by your side of the ideological divide -- you have yet to express a truly independent posiiton on this thread.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Flaja, your question is a bit misleading. You ask about advocating a position the other side advocates-- then you give an example of advocating a position that your side advocates. Most conservatives advocate national education standards and teacher accountability.

Most self-proclaimed conservatives on the net, i.e., libertarians masquerading as conservatives, don't want national anything. And even the legitimate conservatives that want better standards for our schools don't generally want the standards to be established at the federal level, let alone having to pay federal money to implement them. At least some of the current Republican candidates for president want to abolish the federal Department of Education- a liberal creation produced by Jimmy Carter as payback for the support the teachers' unions gave him in 1976.

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As far as the small, non-intrusive government position that conservatives say they represent... well look at the positions that most coservatives take that contradict this.

Don't confuse conservatism with libertarianism. As a conservative I oppose abortion on moral grounds. It is the modern moral equivalent of slavery. You have no more right to take a person's life than you have to take his labor.

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- Conservatives support more government rights to wiretap citizens without judicial oversight.

Then why are so many conservatives treating GWB like he was the plague?

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- Conservatives want to deny states the right to allow same sex marriage.

Again a moral issue. It has nothing to do with government power.

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- And now many conservatives (including a couple presidential candidates) are supporting a national id for all citizens.

None that I know of.

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Re: Another question for the right and left

flaja wrote:

For example: I am a conservative but I am in favor of a national public school system, one with a national K-12 curriculum, nationally standardized textbooks and teacher qualifications. Such a school system is something that a liberal could support (empowering the government), but it is something I support as a matter of national security...

I agree with ebrown_p. I don't know of any liberals who would support such a program of nationalized public schools. You're setting up a strawman argument here, flaja.

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Flaja,

Have you heard of "No Child Left Behind"?

The question raised by your original post in this thread is whether you, as a conservative, could support any position that is held by most liberals. As of yet, you have not given any example of such a position.

I have been thinking about this... and I can't think of a single issue that I personally agree with conservatives on-- and I am not at all unhappy about that.

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Re: Another question for the right and left

joefromchicago wrote:

flaja wrote:
For example: I am a conservative but I am in favor of a national public school system, one with a national K-12 curriculum, nationally standardized textbooks and teacher qualifications. Such a school system is something that a liberal could support (empowering the government), but it is something I support as a matter of national security...

I agree with ebrown_p. I don't know of any liberals who would support such a program of nationalized public schools. You're setting up a strawman argument here, flaja.

Imposing standards is the conservative aspect of what I advocate. Increasing the federal role in public education (including federal financial support with guaranteed teacher salaries) is the liberal aspect. Liberals have a history of advocating and imposing a greater role for the federal government in public schools, but yet we have spent billions and billions of dollars on liberal programs and still have failing schools.

National Defense Education Act
Vocational Education Act of 1963
Higher Education Facilities Act of 1963
Economic Opportunity Act of 1964
Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965
National Foundation on the Arts and the Humanities Acts
Public Broadcasting Act of 1967
National Commission on Libraries and Information Services Act
Comprehensive Employment and Training Act of 1973
Harry S. Truman Memorial Scholarship Act
Educational Broadcasting Facilities and Telecommunications Demonstration Act of 1976
Youth Employment and Demonstration Projects Act of 1977
Career Education Incentive Act
Middle Income Student Assistance Act
Federal Department of Education
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Bilingual Education
Impact Aid
Stewart B. McKinney Homeless Assistance Amendment Acts of 1988
Head Start
Excellence in Mathematics, Science and Engineering Education Act of 1990
School Dropout Prevention and Basic Skills Improvement Act of 1990
National Literacy Act of 1991
Ready to Learn Act
Goals 2000: Educate America Act
School to Work Opportunities Act of 1994
Improving America's Schools Act

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ebrown_p wrote:

Flaja,

Have you heard of "No Child Left Behind"?

You mean GWB's too little too late PR effort?

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The question raised by your original post in this thread is whether you, as a conservative, could support any position that is held by most liberals. As of yet, you have not given any example of such a position.

Expanding the federal role in public education is a liberal goal. Combating global warming is a liberal goal.

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Combating global warming is a liberal goal.

I specifically deny that this has any basis in reality. Combating climate change is not a position clearly defined by our political matrix.

Cycloptichorn

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flaja wrote:

Combating global warming is a liberal goal.

Perhaps you should read a different conservative opinion before claiming such US-only opinion.

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This is silly flaja-- I won't argue about whether scholarship money or public radio is a way of "imposing Federal Government in public schools" or programs started by Reagan and strengthened by Bush Sr. are liberal programs.

The point is that you are a conservative with predictably conservative views. You are not saying anything that isn't narrowly conservative.

I don't have a problem with this as long as you are not trying to imply that you are something that you are not.

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... and flaja.

Don't you think that liberals should be the ones who define what liberal goals are?

I am a liberal and I know lots of liberals. Not one of us has expanding the federal role in public education as a goal.

This is a strawman of strawmen.

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It is well known that conservatives have worked hard to remove internet safeguards because of their ideological devotion to the notion that "if they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to breed"--conservatives don't want to throw a lot of needless stumbling blocks in the path of lecherous, middle-aged conservatives who can't make it wimmins their own age.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

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Combating global warming is a liberal goal.

I specifically deny that this has any basis in reality. Combating climate change is not a position clearly defined by our political matrix.

Then why is it that a liberal just won a Nobel Prize for his belief in global warming?

Why is it that liberals are the ones that are pushing for things like Kyoto?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

flaja wrote:
Combating global warming is a liberal goal.

Perhaps you should read a different conservative opinion before claiming such US-only opinion.

My understanding is that conservatives are not convinced that climate change is actually happening (at bet the data we have is contradictory). And even if it were happening conservatives don't see where human activity can either cause or reverse it.

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ebrown_p wrote:

This is silly flaja-- I won't argue about whether scholarship money or public radio is a way of "imposing Federal Government in public schools" or programs started by Reagan and strengthened by Bush Sr. are liberal programs.

Each of the programs I listed was enacted by a congress that was controlled by Democrats. Are you saying that Democrats are not liberal?

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The point is that you are a conservative with predictably conservative views. You are not saying anything that isn't narrowly conservative.

As a conservative there is much in the list of programs that I would not support or would not support as they were implemented.

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ebrown_p wrote:

... and flaja.

Don't you think that liberals should be the ones who define what liberal goals are?

Don't you think that conservatives should be the onee who define what conservative goals are? But yet you come here and presume to tell me what my conservative goals are, i.e., I support education standards so I must be a conservative by your standards.

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I am a liberal and I know lots of liberals. Not one of us has expanding the federal role in public education as a goal.

Then I gather that you want all of the federal education programs I listed repealed. I'd like to see them repealed as well; thanks for your support.

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Setanta wrote:

It is well known that conservatives have worked hard to remove internet safeguards because of their ideological devotion to the notion that "if they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to breed"--conservatives don't want to throw a lot of needless stumbling blocks in the path of lecherous, middle-aged conservatives who can't make it wimmins their own age.

I don't see how this post has anything to do with the thread at hand, but you are describing libertarians, not conservatives. I support government mandated moral safeguards as a means of protecting society, but I don't necessarily see where such safeguards can always be enforced as a practical matter.

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Another question for the right and left

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