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Widening Class Divide among Black Americans

 
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 08:05 pm
I wasn't applying it to the issue of racism- I was applying it to any issue- in this case, the practice of being selectively outraged and punitive toward those who choose to commit hate crimes based on the perpetrator's race. That is wrong to do- and to deny that it is is disingenuous.

Believe me Setanta- I know that institutional racism is evil. But just as detrimental are actions that contribute toward reinforcement of negative stereotypes about people of a certain race.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 08:06 pm
short people got no reason to live.

Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live

They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Round here

Short People are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)

Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
To love

They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 08:13 pm
aidan wrote:
But just as detrimental are actions that contribute toward reinforcement of negative stereotypes about people of a certain race.


Stereotypes about people of any race or description are reinforced by the attitudes of those who subscribe to them. The "good ol' boy" who is mugged by a white man will say "That rotten bastard!" The same guy mugged by a black man will say: "All them *** are criminals." Your earlier reference to your boss's favorite contention, and this statement, constitute core attitudes of those who stereotype racially, or on the basis of other superficial descriptions.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 08:37 pm
Well, it seems you believe that I was applying my statement to this situation based on the race of the people involved. That's not how I was applying it. I was applying it to the attitude displayed- which in practice, is specifically non-racially stereotypical.

I know what I meant- even if you don't.

What these people did was wrong to do. And this incident will encourage stereotyping and racism - especially in people who are prone to those practices anyway. And sadly, for those who were on the fence- it may just serve to push them over.

Believe what you want to believe- I am NOT racist (at least not toward black people) and I do not stereotype - at least not consciously...but I do believe that au asked a legitimate question, and acknowlegment that this does seem to be an unfortunately hypocritical response might serve to diffuse some of the racial resentment this entire situation may stir up.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 08:43 pm
I haven't said you're racist--and i am not responible for your paranoia on that subject. No attitutde "encourages" racism and stereotyping. Both are irrational points of view, and to allege that someone else's attitude would encourage them is a case of blaming victims or bystanders for the actions of culpable people.

It is certainly not my fault if you have flawed views of the responsibilities which people have for their own world views and the actions which they justify on that basis.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 09:37 pm
Well it seems that we have differing opinions about how people acquire attitudes about others.

You've just expressed that you've acquired the attitude or belief that I am "paranoid' based on words that I've written here. If I did not contribute to that perception (based on what I myself said) I guess I would ask how or why it lay dormant within you to spontaneously erupt.

It is my belief that the same is true of racist attitudes. They may be an unfortunate tendency within a person of a certain personality - but I'd argue that they are fed- however erroneosly- by exterior circumstances or situations.
I think this is one of those unfortunate situations which may serve to feed a latent racist attitude.

I understand you disagree- but that's what makes the world (and this forum) go round right?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2007 11:02 am
Nothing i wrote remotely suggested that you are a racist. Therefore, i consider your insistence that you are not in the midst of a discussion with me to be evidence of paranoia on your part, because i didn't for a moment suggest that you are. I can only conclude that an unreasonable urge on your part to defend yourself against charges of racism which were never leveled at you " . . . may be an unfortunate tendency within a person of a certain personality." It is certainly nothing which comes from within me.

No one "feeds" racism and stereotypes. If racist attitudes are not present in an individual, and said individual does not indulge stereotypes, then no action on the part of someone else will lead them to sweeping and derogatory conclusions about an entire class of people.

Once again, you are blaming victims and bystanders for what culpable people do--in this case nurture racism or stereotypes. Only the racist, or the believer in stereotypes is responsible for that, it is inane to blame anyone else.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2007 12:13 pm
I don't think we're communicating very well with each other here- and I'm not blaming you for that- I'm not blaming you for anything- I just find it hard to understand how you got the message you obviously got from what I said- so I'm concluding that there's a lack of communication of one sort or another.

I didn't think you said I was racist-I guess I did think you were saying that attitudes such as mine might contribute to stereotyping...maybe I read it wrong- or maybe that's what you meant- at this point I no longer have any idea.

What I will stand by is that negative stereotypes can be reinforced by the behavior of those being unfairly (perhaps) judged- that I do believe to be fact- and I can think of a few examples-Bill Cosby's article earlier in this thread is one. If you don't believe that- that's fine...we don't have to believe the same thing..

I also stand by the absolute FACT that I think what these city officials said and then retracted when it turned out that the perpetrator is a black man- can and probably did inflame the situation instead of diffuse it.

I think it could have and should have been handled with more honesty, impartiality and objectivity. And I don't think that pointing that out or asking why it wasn't, is rabble rousing.
I also don't view (and don't believe that most of the black people or other members of minority populations that I know - I can't speak for anyone else)walk around viewing themselves as victims- ( I think that's another misguided stereotype) that's why it was the furthest thing from my mind to think that anything that I said was "blaming the victim".

And finally, I don't believe I blamed (or at least that's not what was in my head and what I meant to convey) anyone for anything except the city officials who lied about what they would do to the perpetrator of this hate crime.

But of course, you made have read the whole thing differently.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2007 03:05 pm
Obviously . . . but then, you seem to be attempting to weasel out of the process known as debate.

I assert once again that to claim that someone is responsible for racism or stereotypes of someone else who is a stranger to the first person is ludicrous. It certain does constitute blaming the victim, because racism victimizes, stereotypes victimize, and you are suggesting that the racist or he or she who cherishes a stereotype is not entirely responsible for their irrational attitude.

As for your paranoia, you wrote:

Quote:
Believe what you want to believe- I am NOT racist (at least not toward black people) and I do not stereotype - at least not consciously...


What sort of response would you expect to that? Nothing which i wrote stated, suggested or implied that i believe you to be racist.

However, as this site also functions as free entertainment, i have some other observations to make.

You're not racist toward black people--do you think racism only describes the attitudes of white boys toward black boys? Do you think it somehow exculpatory to hate other general categories of people based on superficial descriptions, so long as you don't hate blacks? Do you think that it were possible to consciously stereotype people? Does it not occur to you that as soon as one becomes conscious of stereotyping someone, they have begun to cease to do so?

You're a barrel of laughs, Bubba.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2007 05:04 pm
Quote:
Obviously . . . but then, you seem to be attempting to weasel out of the process known as debate.

I really, really, really hate arguing. I really do...I'm no good with circular logic- I'm a very linear thinker- I start getting lost and can't remember who said what, etc. etc.
Quote:
I assert once again that to claim that someone is responsible for racism or stereotypes of someone else who is a stranger to the first person is ludicrous. It certain does constitute blaming the victim, because racism victimizes, stereotypes victimize, and you are suggesting that the racist or he or she who cherishes a stereotype is not entirely responsible for their irrational attitude.

I'm sorry- but I really do believe that stereotypes and generalizations are founded in at least a germ of truth...maybe that's racist and stereotypical of me- but I do...
Like if someone said, "All girls who grew up in New Jersey at a certain time say, "OH MY GOD!!!" -yes, that's a stereotype - but ALOT OF THEM DO- including me....And then when/if I say it over and over again in front of someone who believes that- then it will be reinforced for that person.

Quote:
As for your paranoia, you wrote:

Quote:
Believe what you want to believe- I am NOT racist (at least not toward black people) and I do not stereotype - at least not consciously...


What sort of response would you expect to that? Nothing which i wrote stated, suggested or implied that i believe you to be racist.

However, as this site also functions as free entertainment, i have some other observations to make.


Quote:
You're not racist toward black people--do you think racism only describes the attitudes of white boys toward black boys?

No- but I cringe to admit that I do sometimes have what I would describe as a racist stereotypical fear of people who look middle-eastern when I am on airplanes. I hate even saying that- and I apologize to anyone in advance who that offends- but that's what I was referring to. I, myself do not walk around fearing black men or believing negative stereotypes about black people. But I have to admit that I am not totally non-racist. And truth be told- I don't think very many people are.
(I had a devout Muslim in my class last year though and he an I became very good friends, had alot of interesting discussions about Muslim customs, beliefs, attitudes toward Americans and women (he was Kashmiri) and I learned alot .
I think that- along with the readiness to be honest enough to admit that maybe some education or learning needs to take place is the key.

Quote:
Do you think it somehow exculpatory to hate other general categories of people based on superficial descriptions, so long as you don't hate blacks?

I don't hate anyone that I can think of because of their race. But I do have preconceived notions about certain groups of people.
Quote:
Do you think that it were possible to consciously stereotype people?

Yes- I think often people perceive what they wish to perceive.
Quote:
Does it not occur to you that as soon as one becomes conscious of stereotyping someone, they have begun to cease to do so?

No, there are all sorts of pressures (internal and external) that might cause someone to want to continue to believe what they have begun to know is wrong.

Quote:
You're a barrel of laughs, Bubba.

I hear that all the time. I take it as a compliment -better that than little miss gloom and doom- so thanks... Laughing
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2007 05:07 pm
In addition to having admitted to being selectively racist, and being somewhat entertaining, you are also a master of snotty toss-off lines.

I have employed no circular reasoning, so you can keep that cheap shot to yourself. As for your stated aversion to arguing, what the hell are you doing at this site, and in a discussion such as this, it that were true?
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2007 05:24 pm
I wasn't referring to any deficit in YOUR ability to debate with logic Setanta- I was referring to a deficit in mine...
I see this ability to dissect every line of a discussion as akin to being able to do something like count cards. Just like some people can remember who played what card three rounds ago, some people can keep every bit of a conversation straight- who said what in response to who who said what- and on and on.
I can't do that...these long internet conversations often seem difficult to me as I don't have any context clues because I don't know people or where they're coming from, I can't see their faces, and I don't like arguing with people I don't even know...

I'm here mainly to express myself- that's it. But I have no need or desire to make anyone see things my way.
And I'm not selectively racist- as in I don't select who I will feel afraid of for what reason...I'm also not a snotty person...I want you to know - you DID read that wrong.

But I still believe these city officials WERE selectively racist and wrong
(and I think you have a tendency to be thin-skinned and condescending- but hey- nobody's perfect right?).

Now I'm gonna relax and write Christmas cards (to all those delusional Christians you despise (but would never stereotype- right?)
Have a good evening.
0 Replies
 
 

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