Widening Class Divide among Black Americans

aidan wrote:

I got it as soon as I pressed submit- sorry TG- yeah- alot of Americans would just like to forget the reality and the ensuing consequences...

very well put. and just to point it out, i was about to correct the spelling, but you replied first Smile

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no biggie... Laughing

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tinygiraffe wrote:

i'm not sure exactly how much race has to do with dna either. i remember some argument that genetically, whites and blacks are closer than whites and asians. interesting, when race seems to be based largely on skin color, and when there are theories about asians coming over to north america to eventually become the natives of the land.

so what the hell is race, then? it seems almost completely made-up to me. perhaps it was meaningful up to a time shortly after travel by boat was possible.

There seems to be a distinct DNA difference among Whites, Blacks, Asians and Hispanics. While not readily detectable by known methods of DNA/RNA analysis, it has become the basis for observable differences among these ethnic groups relative to drug metabolism, drug sensitivity and levels of drug toxicity.

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"They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English. I can't even talk the way these people talk:
Why you ain't,
Where you is,
What he drive,
Where he stay,
Where he work,
Who you be...

And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.

And then I heard the father talk.

Everybody knows it's important to speak English

except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor

with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth.

In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living. People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around.

The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.

These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids. $500 sneakers for what ? ?

And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.

I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.

Where were you when he was 2 ? ?

Where were you when he was 12 ? ?

Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol ? ?

And where is the father ? ? Or who is his father ?

People putting their clothes on backward:
Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?

People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something ?

Or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up ?

Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of needles [piercing] going through her body?

What part of Africa did this come from??

We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .

With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail.

Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.

We have got to take the neighborhood back.

People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now.

We have millionaire football players who cannot read.

We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs We, as black folks have to do a better job. Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.

We have to start holding each other to a higher standard.

We cannot blame the white people any longer."

Dr. William Henry "Bill" Cosby, Jr., Ed.D.

WAY TO GO, BILL !!

It's NOT about color...

It's about behavior!!!

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Obama:

"Anyone making more than $91,000/year is in the "Upper Class"..."

Since when?

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au said:

Quote:

It's NOT about color...

It's about behavior!!!

That's true. I had a really interesting conversation in my class the other day about disciplinary styles among different cultures. And I kid you not - out of the twenty people in that room - and there were blacks, whites, and latinos- I was the only person who hadn't routinely received kicks or blows from boots or shoes or bicycle chains or had my hair pulled because I brought the wrong kind of ice-cream home from the store, or was called a p***y or a c*** by my own mother for god's sake.

These kids were laughing and bonding over the fact that their parents' beat the crap out of them while calling them every degrading name you could possibly think of. So, it's not just about neglect, as in neglecting to participate in their lives and educations- it's about abuse- it's about beating them down- not just leaving them alone.
And it didn't seem to be different among the races, in fact one of the white boys described what sounded to be the most brutal abuse from his father (the bicycle chain). No wonder these kids have no hope within themselves.
But the scariest thing is that when I asked them if they planned to employ the same kind of "discipline" (which is what they told me it was) on their children, they said yes, they would... and so the cycle continues.

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aidan wrote:

au said:

Quote:
It's NOT about color...

It's about behavior!!!

Quote:
That's true.
I had a really interesting conversation in my class the other day
about disciplinary styles among different cultures. And I kid you not -
out of the twenty people in that room - and there were blacks, whites,
and latinos- I was the only person who hadn't routinely received kicks or
blows from boots or shoes or bicycle chains or had my hair pulled

When this is discussed,
sometimes I get the impression that thay r almost BOASTING
of how severely ( and with what diabolically creativity )
their parents or teachers abused and terrorized them.
One girl, who is now a judge in NY, almost seemed to savor
the tales of child abuse in Puerto Rico, from which she came.

Is this masochism ?

Quote:

because I brought the wrong kind of ice-cream home from the store,
or was called a p***y or a c*** by my own mother for god's sake.

Respectfully, I don 't believe that it was for the sake of the Supreme Being.

Quote:
These kids were laughing and bonding over the fact that their parents' beat the crap out of them while calling them every degrading name you could possibly think of. So, it's not just about neglect, as in neglecting to participate in their lives and educations- it's about abuse- it's about beating them down- not just leaving them alone.
And it didn't seem to be different among the races, in fact one of the white boys described what sounded to be the most brutal abuse from his father (the bicycle chain).
No wonder these kids have no hope within themselves.

That is a distinct, discrete issue.
Thay may very well reject their parents' views,
and make their own assessments and plans.
It wud not be new for a kid to disagree with his parents.

Quote:
But the scariest thing is that when I asked them if they planned to employ
the same kind of "discipline" (which is what they told me it was)
on their children, they said yes, they would... and so the cycle continues.

What is your opinion
of the intelligences of those who announced those plans ?

Did thay explain the reason that thay believe this will be good child care ?

David

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Quote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
aidan wrote:
au said:

Quote:
It's NOT about color...

It's about behavior!!!

Quote:
That's true.
I had a really interesting conversation in my class the other day
about disciplinary styles among different cultures. And I kid you not -
out of the twenty people in that room - and there were blacks, whites,
and latinos- I was the only person who hadn't routinely received kicks or
blows from boots or shoes or bicycle chains or had my hair pulled

When this is discussed,
sometimes I get the impression that thay r almost BOASTING
of how severely ( and with what diabolically creativity )
their parents or teachers abused and terrorized them.
One girl, who is now a judge in NY, almost seemed to savor
the tales of child abuse in Puerto Rico, from which she came.

Is this masochism ?

I think it's a defense mechanism. I think that if they ever
stopped to think for two seconds about what their life is or was and how it might have been different- they might crumble.
I do think there is an element of boastfulness to it though- it's like they're saying, 'Look what was done to me, and look how I was able to rise above it.'

Quote:
because I brought the wrong kind of ice-cream home from the store,
or was called a p***y or a c*** by my own mother for god's sake.
Respectfully, I don 't believe that it was for the sake of the Supreme Being.

Quote:

These kids were laughing and bonding over the fact that their parents' beat the crap out of them while calling them every degrading name you could possibly think of. So, it's not just about neglect, as in neglecting to participate in their lives and educations- it's about abuse- it's about beating them down- not just leaving them alone.
And it didn't seem to be different among the races, in fact one of the white boys described what sounded to be the most brutal abuse from his father (the bicycle chain).
No wonder these kids have no hope within themselves.
That is a distinct, discrete issue.
Thay may very well reject their parents' views,
and make their own assessments and plans.
It wud not be new for a kid to disagree with his parents.

Yes, but I do think it takes an extremely strong person to rise above abuse to the point that they have not internalized some of its' negative effects in terms of what a person believes about him or herself. And until that person has another experience with different people who are telling him or her that s/he is a good person, with talents and skills and is worth more than the piece of trash that he or she has been treated like an entire lifetime-it's hard for that person to conceptualize a different, more positive view.
I think what people need to understand is that these people are traumatized and often, depressed. I can't even tell you what spending even one day in the harsh, poverty stricken environments they spend every waking minute in would do to me-because I don't really know.
But I do know that viewing their lives objectively - I thank god for mine.

Quote:
Quote:
But the scariest thing is that when I asked them if they planned to employ
the same kind of "discipline" (which is what they told me it was)
on their children, they said yes, they would... and so the cycle continues.

What is your opinion
of the intelligences of those who announced those plans ?

Some of them are very intelligent - I think it's more about a lack of creativity. I also think it's about bravado. They felt pressured by the presence of the other students there to say, 'hey, I got through it - I think my kid should be able to make it through too.' I bet if we'd been talking one on one the response would have been different.

Quote:
Did thay explain the reason that thay believe this will be good child care
?
You know, in a really sad, twisted way, I think they feel that they have to defend the actions of their parents (abusers), and show pride about where they've come from, and what better way to do that than to say, 'that's what I'd do too.'

Hopefully somewhere along the line, someone will be able to show them another way.

But it bugs me when we talk about 'the poor' as if it's just this mass of streaming humanity who came out of nowhere for no reason. There are reasons we're all dealing with all of this.

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aidan wrote:

Quote:

These kids were laughing and bonding over the fact that their parents' beat the crap out of them while calling them every degrading name you could possibly think of. So, it's not just about neglect, as in neglecting to participate in their lives and educations- it's about abuse- it's about beating them down- not just leaving them alone.
And it didn't seem to be different among the races, in fact one of the white boys described what sounded to be the most brutal abuse from his father (the bicycle chain).
No wonder these kids have no hope within themselves.
That is a distinct, discrete issue.
Thay may very well reject their parents' views,
and make their own assessments and plans.
It wud not be new for a kid to disagree with his parents.

Quote:
Yes, but I do think it takes an extremely strong person to rise above abuse to the point that they have not internalized some of its' negative effects in terms of what a person believes about him or herself. And until that person has another experience with different people who are telling him or her that s/he is a good person, with talents and skills and is worth more than the piece of trash that he or she has been treated like an entire lifetime-it's hard for that person to conceptualize a different, more positive view.

I agree with the value of praise.
However, when u say that,
I am reminded that contrarywise,
while walking home from school with classmates who lived in the same direction
a boy my age from 8 to 13 years old ( several times, with different classmates )
some of them having them ask me to spank them.
I found this very strange; this is the opposite desire of what u said
about the value of praising him.
I never complied.

Quote:

I think what people need to understand is that these people are traumatized and often, depressed. I can't even tell you what spending even one day in the harsh, poverty stricken environments they spend every waking minute in would do to me-because I don't really know.
But I do know that viewing their lives objectively - I thank god for mine.

Quote:

Enuf to raise His name to a capital initial ?

Quote:

But the scariest thing is that when I asked them if they planned to employ
the same kind of "discipline" (which is what they told me it was)
on their children, they said yes, they would... and so the cycle continues.

What is your opinion
of the intelligences of those who announced those plans ?

Some of them are very intelligent - I think it's more about a lack of creativity. I also think it's about bravado. They felt pressured by the presence of the other students there to say, 'hey, I got through it - I think my kid should be able to make it through too.'

Is this parental HAZING ??

Quote:

I bet if we'd been talking one on one the response would have been different.

The judgette who told me of the cruel Puerto Rican practices,
that she knew in childhood ( cleverly devised to inflict pain n terror )
was alone with me when she told me of it.

Quote:

Did thay explain the reason that thay believe this will be good child care

?

Quote:

You know, in a really sad, twisted way, I think they feel that they have to defend the actions of their parents (abusers), and show pride about where they've come from, and what better way to do that than to say, 'that's what I'd do too.'

I wish I had been able to inquire of them
as to their opinions of sadism.

Quote:

Hopefully somewhere along the line,
someone will be able to show them another way.

Yes; good luck.
How old r thay ?

Quote:

But it bugs me when we talk about 'the poor'
as if it's just this mass of streaming humanity who came out of nowhere for no reason.

R thay poor ?

Do the rich treat their children better ?

Quote:

There are reasons we're all dealing with all of this.

Yeah and there is a reason that I 'm going to get some good seafood.

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Quote:

I agree with the value of praise.
However, when u say that,
I am reminded that contrarywise,
while walking home from school with classmates who lived in the same direction
a boy my age from 8 to 13 years old ( several times, with different classmates )
some of them having them ask me to spank them.
I found this very strange; this is the opposite desire of what u said
about the value of praising him.
I never complied.

Yes, well- I think we've already determined that that particular boy had issues of a whole different stripe.
Although, you never know what happened to him in his home and many times what is familiar to a person, however strange or painful it may seem to others, is what a person becomes most comfortable with.

Quote:

Quote:

I think what people need to understand is that these people are traumatized and often, depressed. I can't even tell you what spending even one day in the harsh, poverty stricken environments they spend every waking minute in would do to me-because I don't really know.
But I do know that viewing their lives objectively - I thank god for mine.

Quote:

Enuf to raise His name to a capital initial ?

If I raised his name to a capital letter, then I'd feel that I was taking it in vain (conditioning from my own upbringing) and I'd feel guilty about saying it at all. I really shouldn't say it- but as a girl raised in NJ during the time I was raised- it became pretty much embedded in my particular lexicon. It's lazy, I know...but I don't know what to replace it with- "Honest to goodness" or "boy howdy" -what would you suggest?

Quote:
But the scariest thing is that when I asked them if they planned to employ
the same kind of "discipline" (which is what they told me it was)
on their children, they said yes, they would... and so the cycle continues.

What is your opinion
of the intelligences of those who announced those plans ?

Some of them are very intelligent - I think it's more about a lack of creativity. I also think it's about bravado. They felt pressured by the presence of the other students there to say, 'hey, I got through it - I think my kid should be able to make it through too.'[/quote]
Is this parental HAZING ??[/QUOTE]
That's a very accurate way to describe it. I hadn't thought of that. And the hazing just continues out in the world. You know, it's like they never get the benefit of that safe sanctuary that most people call home- that's just not a part of their reality-they have no place at all to relax and feel secure.

Quote:

Quote:
I bet if we'd been talking one on one the response would have been different.

The judgette who told me of the cruel Puerto Rican practices,
that she knew in childhood ( cleverly devised to inflict pain n terror )
was alone with me when she told me of it.

She had reason to boast - she must be really proud of herself for getting where she got from where she came from.

Quote:

Quote:
Did thay explain the reason that thay believe this will be good child care
?

Quote:
You know, in a really sad, twisted way, I think they feel that they have to defend the actions of their parents (abusers), and show pride about where they've come from, and what better way to do that than to say, 'that's what I'd do too.'

I wish I had been able to inquire of them
as to their opinions of sadism.

I think they think it's good preparation for life in the real world. We talked a little about their response to cruelty as opposed to mine. I told them that the things I hear them say to each other make me cringe...they said, "Miss, that's because you aint (from the) 'hood".
I had to admit I wasn't, but I asked them if they enjoyed that kind of stuff and they said, "It's not about enjoying - it's about surviving..."

Quote:

Hopefully somewhere along the line,
someone will be able to show them another way.

Yes; good luck.
How old r thay ?
Anywhere from 16 to 24.

Quote:

Quote:

But it bugs me when we talk about 'the poor'
as if it's just this mass of streaming humanity who came out of nowhere for no reason.

R thay poor ?

Yes, they are - many have been homeless and this is why they're there.

Quote:

Do the rich treat their children better ?[/b][/color]

That's a good question. I don't know (in terms of physical and emotional abuse issues). I've only ever worked with poor children and their parents - professionally- except for some peripheral involvement with middle and upper class people in the public school system I worked in in North Carolina.
I guess I believe the rich have the means materially to treat their children better. Whether or not they have the emotional means to do so, I guess fluctuates from individual to individual.

Quote:

Quote:

There are reasons we're all dealing with all of this.

Yeah and there is a reason that I 'm going to get some good seafood.

[/QUOTE]

You crack me up David. Enjoy it!

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Racial hoaxes
By Walter E. Williams
December 15, 2007

Last May, firefighters at a Baltimore, Md., fire station came under scrutiny for displaying a deer with an afro wig, gold tooth, gold chain and a cigarette hanging from its mouth.

Marvin "Doc" Cheatham, president of the Baltimore chapter of the NAACP, went ballistic, charging, "There is now and has been a culture of racism and white supremacy within the Baltimore City Fire Department."

As it turns out, it was a black fireman who dressed up the critter. Mr. Cheatham refused to apologize for his accusations of fire department racism, maintaining "there is now and has been a culture of racism and white supremacy within the Baltimore City Fire Department."

On Nov. 21, a hangman's noose was found at the fire station with a note, "We can't hang the cheaters, but we can hang the failures. No EMT-1, no job." The noose and note turned up on the heels of an investigation into allegations of cheating on the test that emergency medical technicians must take for certification.

Baltimore Mayor Sheila Dixon, a black, in a written statement said, "I am outraged by this deplorable act of hatred and intimidation. Threats and racial attacks are unacceptable anywhere, especially in a firehouse." Doc Cheatham said, "We're going to demand that this be handled as a hate crime. This thing really needs to end here in Baltimore city." The incident prompted a federal investigation.

Last week, Donald Maynard, a black firefighter-paramedic, confessed to having placed the noose, note and drawing depicting a lynching on a bunk in the firehouse. City officials said Mr. Maynard was recently suspended, prior to his confession, from the department Friday for failing to meet requirements for advanced life-saving training. A spokesman for Mayor Dixon said there would be no criminal charges filed.

In response to Mr. Maynard's confession, NAACP President Cheatham still blamed white racism, saying, "It really saddens us to hear that evidently things have reached a stage that even an African-American does an injustice to himself and his own people as a result of a negative culture in that department."

Doc Cheatham is a poster boy for demonstrating a much larger problem, namely that the once proud and useful NAACP has outlived that usefulness and has in some instances become an impediment to black progress. The Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a black, liberal-to-moderate, Washington-based think tank, reported that 88 percent of blacks favored educational choice plans. A Gallup Poll found 72 percent of blacks support school choice. The NAACP, acting as handmaidens for the teachers' unions, is solidly against school vouchers. A Gallup Poll shows 44 percent of blacks are for the death penalty and 49 percent against it, but the NAACP is solidly against it.

The major problems confronting a large segment of the black community have little or nothing to do with racism ?- problems such as unprecedented illegitimacy, family breakdown, fraudulent education, crime and rampant social pathology. If white people became angels tomorrow, it would do nothing to solve problems that can only be solved by blacks.

But I'm somewhat optimistic. More and more blacks are seeing through race hustlers such as Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Doc Cheatham. An even more optimistic note is the financial decline of the NAACP. Declining black support is good evidence that the civil rights struggle is over and won. That's not to say there are not major problems but they are not civil rights problems.

Today, most civil rights organizations get their financial support from white businesses and foundations caving in to intimidation or seeking to sooth feelings of guilt. For them, I have a cheaper alternative, "Proclamation of Amnesty and Pardon Granted to All Persons of European Descent," available at walterewilliams.com.

Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University and a nationally syndicated columnist.

I HAve little doubt that should Obama not get the nomination the cry of racism will be heard loud and often.

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If you do it won't be from Obama.

He's said several times that if he is not elected it won't be because of racism but because he failed to persuade enough people of his vision (paraphrased).

It looks like you're just rabble rousing.

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Snood
I did not say nor do I expect it to come from Obama but you can bet it will come from elements in the black community.

Quote:

Last week, Donald Maynard, a black firefighter-paramedic, confessed to having placed the noose, note and drawing depicting a lynching on a bunk in the firehouse. City officials said Mr. Maynard was recently suspended, prior to his confession, from the department Friday for failing to meet requirements for advanced life-saving training. A spokesman for Mayor Dixon said there would be no criminal charges filed.

I question why this was not judged a hate crime since it was intended to stir up racial questions and problems.

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au1929 wrote:

Snood
I did not say nor do I expect it to come from Obama but you can bet it will come from elements in the black community.

Quote:
Last week, Donald Maynard, a black firefighter-paramedic, confessed to having placed the noose, note and drawing depicting a lynching on a bunk in the firehouse. City officials said Mr. Maynard was recently suspended, prior to his confession, from the department Friday for failing to meet requirements for advanced life-saving training. A spokesman for Mayor Dixon said there would be no criminal charges filed.

I question why this was not judged a hate crime since it was intended to stir up racial questions and problems.

Yes, and it was also probably pretty upsetting and threatening to the other employees (of any race- but particularly those who are black) at the firehouse.
This kind of nonreaction- based on the perpetrator's race- to an action that is clearly racial intimidation and fits the definition of a hate crime, is exactly the sort of thing that keeps racial tension actively bubbling. It's a shame these city officials couldn't figure this out.

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au1929 wrote:

Snood
I did not say nor do I expect it to come from Obama but you can bet it will come from elements in the black community.

Quote:
Last week, Donald Maynard, a black firefighter-paramedic, confessed to having placed the noose, note and drawing depicting a lynching on a bunk in the firehouse. City officials said Mr. Maynard was recently suspended, prior to his confession, from the department Friday for failing to meet requirements for advanced life-saving training. A spokesman for Mayor Dixon said there would be no criminal charges filed.

I question why this was not judged a hate crime since it was intended to stir up racial questions and problems.

There will always be extreme outcry coming from extreme "elements in the community" - black and white. Pointing out and decrying the rabble rousing is just more rabble rousing.

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Snood
What the likes of Al Sharpton and friends do is rabble rousing I am asking a question . Why was the individual who commited the crime not charged?

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Scientific inquiry/ rabble rousing. Tomahto/ tomayto

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Well I don't consider myself to be a racial rabble-rouser and I think it's a legitimate question-and avoiding it will only extend the status quo.

It's like this woman I work for says: "If you keep on doing what you've always done- you'll keep on getting what you've always gotten".

I think that fits this situation. Some things need to change - and the changing needs to happen on both sides of the divide if anyone ever wants to meet in the middle.
A good start might be honesty and impartiality and objectivity.

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What the hell is it exactly that you are advocating? Agreement that Sharpton's ilk is too fast to racially cry wolf? Okay, stipulated. And?

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aidan wrote:

It's like this woman I work for says: "If you keep on doing what you've always done- you'll keep on getting what you've always gotten".

This is an oversimplified and simplistic point of view, and it is not reasonable to apply to the issue of racism. The entire point of institutionalized racism is that no matter what an individual does or doesn't do, he or she is judged upon the basis of stereotypes and preconceived assumptions. For sake of appearances, a certain number of people of any race, or a certain number of females, or a certain number of physically handicapped persons, will be given opportunities, and as often as not, based solely upon their apparent membership in the disadvantaged group, not based upon comparative qualifications. To that extent, people get what they've always gotten no matter what efforts they make. That is why institutional racism is a positive evil.

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Widening Class Divide among Black Americans

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