1
   

The US Economy

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2004 10:17 pm
From Sep 28, 2001 to Jan 20, 2004, it looks like government debt increased by about $500 billion.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2004 10:27 pm
timber, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the interest costs have gone down on the debt during the past three years. A smart guy like you shouldn't need any third party explanation. Hind sight is always 20/20, but looking forward a few years hence is the big problem with the current low interest rates. You can probably figure out this one too!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 08:54 am
Timber, I'm not following you.

According to www.Economagic.com:

The price deflator in Q4 1992 was: 87.029
The price deflator in 04 2000 was: 100.666

Real GDP in Q4 1992: 7076.9
Real GDP in Q4 2000: 9887.7

It follows that nominal GDP grew by 61%

According to you, nominal grew rose by 37%, which is less than 61%. Nominal interest payments grew by 23%, which is also less than 61%

It follows that both public debt and interest payments, as a share of GDP declined under Clinton. But you seem to be saying that these figures increased both nominally and as a share of GDP.

You also neglect to mention that interest rates declined dramatically during Bush's tenure because the economy was in recession, followed by a jobless recovery. Obviously that reduced interest payments on the public debt, but are you seriously claiming that this should count in Bush's favor?

What, if anything, am I missing here?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 12:38 pm
Not missing anything, Thomas, I was just being silly, and pointing out that the effective burden of The Public Debt, of which Annual Budget Deficits are but a minor component, has decreased. Its really a minor point, admittedly, and exclusionary of numerous other valid considerations. Just like the wailing over Annual Budget Deficits. [i]Of course[/i] the decline of service cost has declined with the decline in interest rate. In an oblique sort of way, I was having some fun ... being as silly in one way as some folks (whose financial accumen I question) are silly in another.

Concretely, Annual Budget Deficit Percentage of GDP, and growth or shrinkage thereof, are the only meaningful indicators to watch. The current Annual Budget Deficit is at a level historically proven well supportable. Over the past couple of years, its growth has been edging up, which could, should the rate of that growth continue to increase, become troublesome, but even the current rate of growth is not particularly notable considered on a year-over-year percentage basis in historic perspective. It seems to me the folks who whine the loudest about The Annual Budget Deficit understand it least. the Annual Budget Deficit IS NOT the same thing as The Public Debt, and gets much more emphasis than it merits. Admittedly, a few hundred billion here, a few hundred billion there, and pretty soon, you're talking about significant money :wink: , but in terms of the economic function of which it is a component, the Annual Budget Deficit is not a particularly significant factor. The debt-growth restriction policy promised in the latest State of The Union Address is promising; if it is something which can be realized, along with continued increasing tax revenue, and stable, low interest rates, the apparent paydown will begin. I say "apparent paydown", because, again, in comparison with the overall Public Debt, a few hundred billion one way or the other makes damned little difference. If anything, the current historic interest rates are a strong argument against debt paydown; at present, it costs less to borrow money than it does to generate it. That of course cannot be expected a long-term situation, and it is a specious argument, but then, so many fiscal arguments are specious.

My whole point is that while in general a surplus is at least theoretically preferable to a deficit, currently, The Annual Budget Deficit really is no big deal. In fact, all else considered, a balance, as opposed th either a deficit or surplus, is likely the souder goal; collect only so much tax as is required to service the debt while preventing, or at least limiting its growth to a rate well below the growth of GDP. Presently, despite Annual Budget Deficits, The Public Debt is not growing more rapidly than GDP. I really do see tax revenue opportunity enhancement, couple with historically low int4erest rates, as overall good news regarding The Public Debt, just as the slide of The Dollar relative to other currencies is an overall bit of good news for The Current Account Deficit, something else widely overlooked. Fiscally, The US is in damned good shape, and promises to remain that way. Nothing on the planet even begins to rival the economic strength and stability of The US.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 01:19 pm
timber's quote, "The Fiscal 1993 interest expense for The Public Debt was $292,502,219,484.25. In 2000, the interest expense was $361,997,734,302.36, having increased every year over the period encompassing the tenure of The Previous Administration. The 2001 interest expense declined to $359,507,635,242.41, in 2002 the cost dropped to $332,536,958,599.42, and for 2003, the cost was lower yet, at $318,148,529,151.51, the lowest since 1994, when it stood at $296,277,764,246.26." If you're spending all this time to be silly, what even make the effort?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 01:28 pm
Just to illustrate how silly other folks are being in their own singling out of essentially irrelevant data to press a questionable point, c.i. ; The Annual Budget Deficit is a politcally volatile Media event, more than anything else, and it is rarely considered in actual, meaningful, relative terms, by anyone.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 01:32 pm
I'm sure you are the only person that understands that!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 01:34 pm
To be sure, important questions about the economic recovery remain to be answered. When - or will - employment growth catch up with the broader recovery? What are the prospects for the shrinking manufacturing sector? Will the markets be as healthy through 2004 as they were at the end of 2003? Politicians seem to be putting questions aside for now.
President Bush, fresh from helping create the new prescription drug program, is floating other spending ideas - space exploration, job training, marriage promotion and more. Democratic presidential candidates, elbowing each other on the campaign trail, also have plenty of ideas for spending money.
All those promises and lots of other factors - like supporting the baby- boom generation in retirement - worry many economy watchers who are increasingly focused on the deficit.
Because of increased spending and tax cuts, the federal government has gone from a surplus in 2000 to a deficit of about $450 billion now.
Both the president and some Democrats say the deficit can be halved in five years with a combination of economic growth and spending cuts. Others say, "Dream on."
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 08:35 am
Dys,

I strongly suspect the administration will start some discretionary spending cuts soon after the election. Further, I believe that with the growth we are experiencing and these spending cuts they can make a very substantial reduction in the deficit projection. The 50% bit is likely as foggy as is the projection itself.

All of this could be chaulked up to a "starve the government beast' strategy on their part. It is also likely that they are mindful that, under a Democrat regime, we would have enacted an even more generous prescription drug program.

We can speculate about how well the Democrats would have preserved the government surplus, given the recession that was already underway in 2000, and the sharp drop in tax collections that resulted. Would they have stimulated the economy as effectively? Would they have exercised more restraint in government spending? History does not suggest they would.

Linear projections of economic parameters in a very dynamic economy is intrinsically deceitful. One can forecast nearly anything by the proper choice of starting point and rate of change.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 01:50 pm
george, Your assessment about how the democrats would have handled the national debt and economic growth are good questions. IMHO, it's impssible to predict. Having said that, I also believe that the government has very little influence on our economy. The transfer of technology jobs to China and India would have happened under a republican or democratic president. Those decisions are made by multinational companies to compete in the world markets - not by the president. However, I did read one interesting article in the newspaper this past week that the stock market performed better under democrats than under republican administrations.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 02:14 pm
Here's why we can't reverse globalisation.
**********************************
What is the truest definition of Globalization?
Answer: Princess Diana's death.
Question: How come?
Answer: An English princess with an Egyptian boyfriend crashes in a
French tunnel, driving a German car with a Dutch engine, driven by a Belgian who was drunk on Scottish whiskey, followed closely by Italian Paparazzi, on Japanese motorcycles, treated by an American doctor, using
Brazilian medicines!

And this was sent to me by an American, using Bill Gates' technology,
and you're probably reading this on one of the IBM clones, that use Taiwanese-made chips, and a Korean-made monitor, assembled
by Bangladeshi workers in a Singapore plant, transported by lorries
driven by Indians, hijacked by Indonesians, unloaded by Sicilian longshoremen, trucked by Mexican illegals, and finally sold to
you by an Israeli. That, my friend, is Globalization!
*******
Received in today's email from a friend.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 03:39 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Not missing anything, Thomas, I was just being silly, and pointing out that the effective burden of The Public Debt, of which Annual Budget Deficits are but a minor component, has decreased.

I see. It was the irony I had missed. Now it makes sense. Smile


timberlanko wrote:
My whole point is that while in general a surplus is at least theoretically preferable to a deficit, currently, The Annual Budget Deficit really is no big deal.

I agree so far, but the most convincing complaints I have seen -- the ones coming from Paul Krugman, Brad de Long, et. al. -- weren't about the current annual budget deficit. They are about the long-term budget outlook, and how the Bush administration's long-term tax cuts changed them for the worse. The appearance of harmlessness is created by the current surplus of Social Security, a program Democrats and Republicans agreed should be in its own 'lockbox'. Outside of Social Security, to my knowledge, the US government borrows about 25% of its spending. According to the current budget outlook, there is not much relief in sight in the next 10 years. Are you telling me seriously that this isn't scary?

(Yes, I know this outlook is subject to change. But change can cut both ways. Just because we know things won't play out as the CBO expects, that doesn't mean they'll play out better. It is just as likely they will play out even worse.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 09:27 pm
Today's news: Kraft to cut 6,000 jobs, close 20 plants. Haven't heard of any company hiring 6,000 people all at once - have you? We're still waiting for Bush's tax cuts to "create jobs." I know, there's always a "lag time."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 11:11 pm
A Krugman article. BOLD: emphasis is mine.
*********************
Red Ink Realities
January 27, 2004
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Even conservatives are starting to admit that George Bush
isn't serious when he claims to be doing something about
the exploding budget deficit. At best - to borrow the
already classic language of the State of the Union address
- his administration is engaged in deficit
reduction-related program activities.

But these admissions have been accompanied by an urban
legend about what went wrong. According to cleverly
misleading reports from the Heritage Foundation and other
like-minded sources, the deficit is growing because Mr.
Bush isn't sufficiently conservative: he's allowing runaway
growth in domestic spending. This myth is intended to
divert attention from the real culprit: sharply reduced tax
collections, mainly from corporations and the wealthy.

Is domestic spending really exploding? Think about it: farm
subsidies aside, which domestic programs have received
lavish budget increases over the last three years?
Education? Don't be silly: No Child Left Behind is rapidly
turning into a sick joke.

In fact, many government agencies are severely
underfinanced. For example, last month the head of the
National Park Service's police admitted to reporters that
her force faced serious budget and staff shortages, and was
promptly suspended.

A recent study by the Center on Budget and Policy
Priorities does the math. While overall government spending
has risen rapidly since 2001, the great bulk of that
increase can be attributed either to outlays on defense and
homeland security, or to types of government spending, like
unemployment insurance, that automatically rise when the
economy is depressed.

Why, then, do we face the prospect of huge deficits as far
as the eye can see? Part of the answer is the surge in
defense and homeland security spending. The main reason for
deficits, however, is that revenues have plunged. Federal
tax receipts as a share of national income are now at their
lowest level since 1950.


Of course, most people don't feel that their taxes have
fallen sharply. And they're right: taxes that fall mainly
on middle-income Americans, like the payroll tax, are still
near historic highs. The decline in revenue has come almost
entirely from taxes that are mostly paid by the richest 5
percent of families: the personal income tax and the
corporate profits tax. These taxes combined now take a
smaller share of national income than in any year since
World War II.

This decline in tax collections from the wealthy is partly
the result of the Bush tax cuts, which account for more
than half of this year's projected deficit. But it also
probably reflects an epidemic of tax avoidance and evasion.
Everyone who wants to understand what's happening to the
tax system should read "Perfectly Legal," the new book by
David Cay Johnston, The Times's tax reporter, who shows how
ideologues have made America safe for wealthy people who
don't feel like paying taxes.

I was particularly struck by Mr. Johnston's description of
the carefully staged Senate Finance Committee hearings in
1997-1998. Senators Trent Lott and Frank Murkowski accused
the I.R.S. of "Gestapo"-like tactics, and Congress passed
new rules that severely restricted the I.R.S.'s ability to
investigate suspected tax evaders. Only later, when the
cameras were no longer rolling, did it become clear that
the whole thing was a con. Most of the charges weren't
true, and there was good reason to believe that the star
witness, who dramatically described how I.R.S. agents had
humiliated him, really was engaged in major-league tax
evasion (he eventually paid $23 million, insisting he had
done no wrong).

And this was part of a larger con. What's playing out in
America right now is the bait-and-switch strategy known on
the right as "starve the beast." The ultimate goal is to
slash government programs that help the poor and the middle
class, and use the savings to cut taxes for the rich. But
the public would never vote for that.

So the right has used deceptive salesmanship to undermine
tax enforcement and push through upper-income tax cuts. And
now that deficits have emerged, the right insists that they
are the result of runaway spending, which must be curbed.

While this strategy has been remarkably successful so far,
it also offers a big opportunity to the opposition. So
here's a test for the Democratic contenders: details of
your proposals aside, which of you can do the best job
explaining the ongoing budget con to the American people?


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/opinion/27KRUG.html?ex=1076210951&ei=1&en=a86c41a410157fa3
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jan, 2004 08:30 pm
A couple of Budget leaks, 20 million dollars will be added to NEA's, and the Medicare Bill has been adjusted up to 540 billion.

Screw us more in '04.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 08:45 pm
It's too soon for this thread to die out...

Quote:
I know there will be jobs in the future, because I know this is a vibrant economy, a dynamic economy.

-- N. Gregory Mankiw, Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, press briefing, 2/9/04

Which reminded me of something I heard some time ago:

Quote:
PRESIDENT: Mr. Gardner, do you agree with Ben, or do you think that we can stimulate growth through temporary incentives?

(Long pause)
CHANCE THE GARDENER: As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.

PRESIDENT: In the garden?

CHANCE: Yes. In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.

PRESIDENT: Spring and summer.

CHANCE: Yes.

PRESIDENT: Then fall and winter.

CHANCE: Yes.

BENJAMIN RAND: I think what our insightful young friend is saying is that we welcome the inevitable seasons of nature, but we're upset by the seasons of our economy.

CHANCE: Yes! There will be growth in the spring!

RAND: Hmmmm.

CHANCE: Hmmmm.

PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Gardner, I must admit that is one of the most refreshing and optimistic statements I've heard in a very, very long time!


Being There, 1979
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 09:54 pm
It seems Greenspan is reading the same tea leaves as Chance the gardener and the rest of the pundits on our economy. He hints that 2.6 million jobs this year is probable, and the market jumps over 100 points. Everybody still uses the same old tools to analyze our eocnomy, and I say "good luck!" The important economic variables have all changed from last year, five years ago, and 20 years ago. When these analysts compares what happened in the eighties with what may happen now is pure garbage, just because some economic indicator seem to match those of a quarter century ago. Nevah hoppen.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 10:08 pm
Quote:
GARDNER: oh, just one more thing. Be sure not to wear clean clothes when you're working in the dirt.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 11:45 pm
c.i. , Greenspan said nothing of the sort; he said merely that job growth in line with Whitehouse projections was "plausible", given that expansion was well under way and it was improbable that productivity gains could maintain their recent pace, therefore increased hiring was likely if the rate of expansion was to continue as it appeared poised to do. He placed no figure or timeframe on future hiring however, and said specifically that job growth remained disappointing.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 12:13 am
"Plausable - seemingly or appratently valid, likely, or acceptable." "Probable - likely to happen or to be true." Hell, timber, don't have better things to do?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » The US Economy
  3. » Page 57
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 03/12/2025 at 04:19:37