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Feminist are better in bed

 
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 03:56 pm
Just wanted to add one more thing.

ebrown, Brandon is the perfect example of the kind of men I was talking about and they are the ones who are the cause of you frustration, not the women.

As long as there is a Brandon mantality regarding a "woman place" (which is barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen) it's going to continue to be an up hill battle.

All the Brandon's of the world are holding us all back.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 04:48 pm
Sorry Montana.... I don't buy it.

Equality for men and women means equality for men and women.

If you are advocating equality you are going to have to stop giving men (as a gender) all the blame. Equality means equal responsibility and equal voice in what constitutes a respectable relationship.

I want an end to the negative stereotypes against men.

You can't say "Look Brandon is a man and I think he is a troglodyte so therefore men should accept the fact they are seen as troglodytes".
Any prejudice can be justified this way. (Note I am not commenting on what I think of Branden's comment).

Negative stereotypes are the sole responsibility of the people who hold them.

The attitudes of the writers of the article that started this thread are at least as ill informed as Brandon's comment. So what... it doesn't absolve anyone of the responsibility to address prejudices.

Knocking down men for all of the past and present evils of society (as if all evils were caused by men) is not a productive strategy if equality is the goal.
.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 05:11 pm
I'm not knocking down men ebrown, but if you walked a mile in a womans shoes, you'd understand what I'm saying.

You have absolutely no idea what it's like being a woman and hearing a life time of remarks from men who think they know where our place should be and living with men who expect us to cater to them.

Women have been treated unfairly since the beginning of time, yet most men don't seem to care about that!

I don't expect that the tables will ever be turned to the extent that men will experience what it's like to be treated like a servant to their women, but I assure you, if it ever did happen, a whole lot of men would change their tune.

Life has never been fair to women, but we're catching up, thank god!

Some men can't accept equality because that means they have to work harder. It was so much easier for for them before we had laws to protect us because if we gave them any lip, they'd just smack us.

You may not buy it ebrown, but I call it as I live it!
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gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 05:14 pm
Montana, do you have time to make me a sandwich?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 05:15 pm
<tackles Gus and kicks his ass>
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 05:25 pm
If you walked a mile in a man's shoes you'd understand what I'm saying. You have absolutely no idea what it's like being a man...

You seem to only be concerned about how things are unfair for women. You have neither acknowledged, nor showed any concern for how things are unfair for men.

My problem with Feminism is that it is too focussed on putting men in their place and not enough focussed on true equality.

The feminist retelling of history doesn't help. The idea that oppressive men have been treating misunderstood and mistreated women since "the beginning of time" is a seductive narrative that doesn't make sense. For one thing, judging all societies for all time based on modern mythology is problematic in many ways. Perhaps this is another thread.

Right now, life isn't fair for men in many ways. We can either pit women against men for perceived past and present ills...

... or as equals we can have a rational discussion on how to make our society a better place.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 05:49 pm
I'm game. I know some things are unfair to men and I do care. I want things to be equally fair to everyone.

I mentioned the past because some men are still being raised with the past mantality of "the womans place" and until this can finally be a thing of the past, it'll linger in the present.

Being treated like we are not as valuable as men, is no picnic.

I was up a few stories putting up some cedar siding when men would constantly walk by making comments and laughing at me and this made my blood boil.

One guy yelled up to me and asked me if I was trying to be a man and I spit on him. Boy, did I have the last laugh, along with the crew of men I had working for me Laughing

I wish we could just eliminate the gender thing and treat eachother like people.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 06:03 pm
This thread was originally a thread about sex... let's get back on topic.

If two consenting adults are in a sexual relationship, then they (and the alone) get to decide whether it is "satisfying" or "healthy".

If someone who is satisfied by being domineering and controlling finds a partner who is satisfied by being controlled... whose business is it but theirs? Likewise, people have different attitudes about monogamy and courtship... so what. The two people in the relationship can figure these things out.

Feminists can be as judgmental as Christian fundamentalists when it comes to sexual relationships.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 10:36 pm
Montana wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
I believe in equality between the sexes, but I most certainly do not believe in enforced identicality between the sexes. They are not identical psychologically. There are many differences. I believe that it would be wrong for society to forcibly suppress gender differences and force males to behave like females and females to behave like males. Anyone who wants to lead that kind of a lifestyle can go it anyway, but I wouldn't want society to treat them identically or try to forcibly expunge real differences between the genders. I heard some news item about a school that forced all the girls to take wood shop and all the boys to take Home Economics. This is what I would call society trying to forcibly expunge real gender differences, and I do not approve.


I'm not talking about men acting time women and if you think cooking and cleaning is a womans place, while wood shop is a mans place, you're one of the reasons why woman are so pissed off!

I took wood class and cooking class and I see nothing wrong with schools requiring the boys to take home economics.
I had a successful construction and taxi business and thank god you weren't around to plant me in the kitchen!

The only differences between genders is that we are different emotionally and physically, so I totally resent men like you who feel that women belong in the kitchen, while the men do whatever the hell they want.

Way back when if a woman so much as refused to cook a meal for hubby, he could kick her ass and there was no law to protect her, but welcome to 2008 Brandon, where your kind of men aren't allowed to control women anymore.

Men put women in the kitchen by force and that is changing, like it or not.

Kiss my ass brandon!

You accuse me of espousing a wide variety of things I didn't say. My point was the opposite of how you present it - that society shouldn't force people to do things contrary to their nature and wishes. I know, though, that it's easier to win arguments when you misrepresent what your opponent has said. How about, just for laughs, arguing against something that I actually said?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 10:37 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
...The attitudes of the writers of the article that started this thread are at least as ill informed as Brandon's comment.....

Ill informed about what? Please provide one example of something I said that was objectively false.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 10:43 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Montana wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
I believe in equality between the sexes, but I most certainly do not believe in enforced identicality between the sexes. They are not identical psychologically. There are many differences. I believe that it would be wrong for society to forcibly suppress gender differences and force males to behave like females and females to behave like males. Anyone who wants to lead that kind of a lifestyle can go it anyway, but I wouldn't want society to treat them identically or try to forcibly expunge real differences between the genders. I heard some news item about a school that forced all the girls to take wood shop and all the boys to take Home Economics. This is what I would call society trying to forcibly expunge real gender differences, and I do not approve.


I'm not talking about men acting time women and if you think cooking and cleaning is a womans place, while wood shop is a mans place, you're one of the reasons why woman are so pissed off!

I took wood class and cooking class and I see nothing wrong with schools requiring the boys to take home economics.
I had a successful construction and taxi business and thank god you weren't around to plant me in the kitchen!

The only differences between genders is that we are different emotionally and physically, so I totally resent men like you who feel that women belong in the kitchen, while the men do whatever the hell they want.

Way back when if a woman so much as refused to cook a meal for hubby, he could kick her ass and there was no law to protect her, but welcome to 2008 Brandon, where your kind of men aren't allowed to control women anymore.

Men put women in the kitchen by force and that is changing, like it or not.

Kiss my ass brandon!

You accuse me of espousing a wide variety of things I didn't say. My point was the opposite of how you present it - that society shouldn't force people to do things contrary to their nature and wishes. I know, though, that it's easier to win arguments when you misrepresent what your opponent has said. How about, just for laughs, arguing against something that I actually said?

Adding to my post, in the example I cited, the school in question forbade boys to take shop or girls to take Home Economics. All of the boys had to take Home Economics and girls had to take wood shop. I object to this because it is coercive. You are saying, I presume, that you approve of such a policy.

Furthermore, you say:

"Kiss my ass brandon!"

I didn't attack any other poster personally, but only argued ideas, and, frankly, when someone relies on this type of comment to make a point, I presume it indicates the weakness of his or her argument.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 03:24 am
Brandon, my post to you would have been completely different if you hadn't forgotten to add this "the school in question forbade boys to take shop or girls to take Home Economics."

In fact If you hadn't have left out that very important fact, I would have agreed with you, for the most part.

Sorry for the "kiss my ass". I get a little testy when I feel offended.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 06:20 am
All right.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 06:36 am
Brandon,

I disagreed with your post, but mainly because of my feelings about education.

Good education is an act of subversion... and challenging the gender roles of students is a perfect example of this.

However, outside of school I will agree that people can choose any role they want provided they can find a partner who will support them. If a working man who doesn't do diapers finds a stay-at-home-and-cook-dinner woman, and if they are both happy with this arrangement, than so be it. The purpose is to find relationships where both sides are free to choose and end up feeling satisfied.

I was responding to Montana (and using you a bit as an example). My intention was to put the disclaimer and move on.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 06:53 am
I agree that it's perfectly fine for women to be stay at home moms if that what she wants, as long as hubby can provide for the family. This works out well for many women and they prefer this over going to work outside the home.

It's the situatuations where mom has no choice but to go out and work outside the home because hubby can't provide alone or just women who prefer to work, yet are still expected to do all the house work and child care, which I have a problem with.

If everyone is happy in the situations there in, I'm happy for them, as long as they don't expect us all to be happy in the same conditions.
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