Feminist are better in bed

He may be referring to the inequality that exists between mens rights and womens rights (which are greater these days) and mens services and womens services (which are much greater these days) - in Australia at least (not sure about the US).

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Maybe I'm a little dense, but I still don't understand. I'm pretty sure I'm not understanding what he means because I don't see ebrown as someone who would be against anything I believe in, in this area.

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Let me try to explain it. Chelsea Clinton's father is actually Janet Reno.

Does that help?

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Nope

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Are you saying that woman are trying to turn men into women?

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It's more than that Montana. We already spoke about how relationships are judged in terms that favor women. Few men would list "laughing together" as the key measure of a good relationship, and many men would not agree that monogamy is a sign of satisfaction.

But it is much more than that.

Let's start with fathers.

Fathers are not really considered parents. It is assumed that men can learn to be good parents... in fact there are plenty of public attempts to make fathers good parents.

Last father's day there were a bunch of signs put up around Boston admonishing men that this was the day to think of all the ways they could be a better father.

Yet mothers are assumed to be naturally good parents. On mother's day you all the messages are praising mothers-- you never see any message on how mothers could improve.

This, of course, has real implications in custody decisions (which still heavily favor the mother).

Part of my beef with feminists is that they support the stereotypes. There are lots of complaints about the failure of fathers... but nothing but support and praise for the virtue of motherhood.

This isn't equality.

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Thank you for simplifying it for me ebrown and I understand what you're saying now.

I agree with you that some go way too far with it, but women have gotten a raw deal for ever where some things are concerned and those things needed to be changed.

I believe in equality where everything is concerned. Wages, parenting, house work, yard work and such should shared equally.

There was a time when the women would stay home to care for the kids while hubby went out to work and that was ok way back when, but women have to work now too, but old habbits are hard to break and now I still see a lot of women going to work, come home, cook for kids + hubby, clean the house and thet're exausted because hubby was raised to think that these things are a womans job.

Meanwhile, hubby goes to work, comes home talking about how rough a day he had, plants himself in a chair with a beer and scratches whatever itches he's got going. Maybe lets one rip every now and again and if wife is lucky, she won't hear it over the vacuume.

Don't get me wrong because I trully know that all men are not like this, but a **** load of men still expect their wives to do everything at home, including taking care of the kids, even though they also have to go out and work.

The father of my son and I lived together for 6 years and he never once even changed our sons diaper. That was gross to him and was a womans job. He never made me a meal or cleaned the house because that's a womans job. He never once got up in the middle of the night right after my son was born to tend to our son. It didn't matter how exausted I was because it was the mothers job.

Again, I know all men are not like this, but many are and I don't blame the woman for being outraged.

I've seen women rush home from work to make supper for hubby and when I ask them why hubby can't make his own meal, they look at me with a blank look on their face, as if it was their job. These women need to wise up, as far as I'm concerned.

More and more men are climbing out of those old ways and I'm very happy to see that, but we do have a long way to go.

I like things to be fair.

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I agree completely with you on the issue of wages.

I don't agree on the housework-- I think that housework is part of a damaging stereotype that has developed of the "lazy man" who can't fend for himself.

The fact is that most men now live on their own for years before they are married. We know how to cook our own meals and keep our own house.

Of course each couple is different... but the stereotype is always there and it is assumed that men don't do their share even when this is completely unjustified.-- and a man has to work very hard to overcome this stereotype.

You now see silly "studies" about how much a women should earn (which always assume that the man does nothing which in my experience is rarely the case)-- and you see these deeply insulting Dr. Phil shows where a man is "unable" do the woman's job and reaches enlightenment that his wife is better than he is.

Yet the couples where the man does more than his share of work... you never hear about these because they don't match the story.

It annoys me that my wife "does" housework whereas when I am doing the exact same thing I am "helping" with housework.

I almost lost it when my wife was pregnant (and I was basically running the house) and some ignorant nurse took me aside to admonish me that I needed to "help" with the housework because of my wifes condition.

Men can't win this one because the negative stereotypes of men are so strong-- but it still annoys me.

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I got ya ebrown and I understand your frustration. I know that men have come a long way in doing for themselves, but I still see so so so many men who still stuck in those old ways and I think those are the guys that are making it difficult for the rest of you good guys.

You made me smile wide when you mentioned everything you did when your child was born and I truly wish I had a man that cared that much for me when our son was born. I'll never forget how exausted I was and it would have been so nice if my ex had met me half way.

That nurse was a bitch and she was totally out of line!

I've met some great dads in my day, but I truly wish they fell into the majority. Like I said before, it's the ones that are stuck in the old ways that are bringing the rest of you down and that's a shame. It truly is!

I do think that things are going to change, though. I believe the newer generations are going to even things out and we will all be treated equally in all aspects, including how the courts handle custody situations.

Boys are being raised differently now. Their moms are out working, just like dad and more and more men are meeting their wives half way, so in turn, the boys learn the whole equality thing.

Whenever I told my ex I had to go out shopping or whatever, he would say "so, I suppose you want me to babysit", even after I told him a million times that there's no such thing as babysitting your own children.

It's men like this that really suck and they are the ones who are setting off the women and making it an up hill battle for all the decent fathers out there, such as yourself.

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I believe in equality between the sexes, but I most certainly do not believe in enforced identicality between the sexes. They are not identical psychologically. There are many differences. I believe that it would be wrong for society to forcibly suppress gender differences and force males to behave like females and females to behave like males. Anyone who wants to lead that kind of a lifestyle can go it anyway, but I wouldn't want society to treat them identically or try to forcibly expunge real differences between the genders. I heard some news item about a school that forced all the girls to take wood shop and all the boys to take Home Economics. This is what I would call society trying to forcibly expunge real gender differences, and I do not approve.

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I'd hold the door open for Montana any day. And every day.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Part of my beef with feminists is that they support the stereotypes. There are lots of complaints about the failure of fathers... but nothing but support and praise for the virtue of motherhood.

Please tell me you're kidding.

Mothers get it from all sides. You're wasting your education by staying home with your kid. You're missing your kid's childhood by working. You're being a bad role model by staying home. You're selfish for staying home. You're selfish for working. You're spoiling your kid by co-sleeping. You're cruel to your kid by letting him cry it out. You're making your kid obese by failing to make homemade meals all the time. You're trying too hard to be a supermom by always making homemade meals -- relax already! You're depriving your child of opportunities and quite likely the chance to get into a good college by failing to enroll her in various arts and sports activities. You're ruining your child's life by over-scheduling.

I could go on in this vein for a VERY long time.

I completely agree with you that fathers are not given enough credit for their ability to parent. But some sort of warm, uplifting general regard for motherhood from all quarters? Please.

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Sozobe,

I have never heard the term "deadbeat mom", have you?

((if fathers who want custody of their kids had an equal chance of getting it, you might))

You are right that and society can be judgmental in a way that is contradictory and impossible to satisfy-- but this is a separate topic.

I stand by my point that the negative stereotypes of men as parents are far stronger and far more damaging then anything that women face.

When people start suggesting that I (as a man) should quit work to spend time with my children-- I will consider this a step toward a more equal society.

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I agree with all of that.

I was arguing with the notion that mothers are the recipients of "nothing but support and praise for the virtue of motherhood."

I think honoring childrearing -- no matter who does it -- would benefit everyone, and that's something I would love to see.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

I believe in equality between the sexes, but I most certainly do not believe in enforced identicality between the sexes. They are not identical psychologically. There are many differences. I believe that it would be wrong for society to forcibly suppress gender differences and force males to behave like females and females to behave like males. Anyone who wants to lead that kind of a lifestyle can go it anyway, but I wouldn't want society to treat them identically or try to forcibly expunge real differences between the genders. I heard some news item about a school that forced all the girls to take wood shop and all the boys to take Home Economics. This is what I would call society trying to forcibly expunge real gender differences, and I do not approve.

I'm not talking about men acting time women and if you think cooking and cleaning is a womans place, while wood shop is a mans place, you're one of the reasons why woman are so pissed off!

I took wood class and cooking class and I see nothing wrong with schools requiring the boys to take home economics.
I had a successful construction and taxi business and thank god you weren't around to plant me in the kitchen!

The only differences between genders is that we are different emotionally and physically, so I totally resent men like you who feel that women belong in the kitchen, while the men do whatever the hell they want.

Way back when if a woman so much as refused to cook a meal for hubby, he could kick her ass and there was no law to protect her, but welcome to 2008 Brandon, where your kind of men aren't allowed to control women anymore.

Men put women in the kitchen by force and that is changing, like it or not.

Kiss my ass brandon!

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cjhsa wrote:

I'd hold the door open for Montana any day. And every day.

And I'd do the same for you :-D

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sozobe wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Part of my beef with feminists is that they support the stereotypes. There are lots of complaints about the failure of fathers... but nothing but support and praise for the virtue of motherhood.

Please tell me you're kidding.

Mothers get it from all sides. You're wasting your education by staying home with your kid. You're missing your kid's childhood by working. You're being a bad role model by staying home. You're selfish for staying home. You're selfish for working. You're spoiling your kid by co-sleeping. You're cruel to your kid by letting him cry it out. You're making your kid obese by failing to make homemade meals all the time. You're trying too hard to be a supermom by always making homemade meals -- relax already! You're depriving your child of opportunities and quite likely the chance to get into a good college by failing to enroll her in various arts and sports activities. You're ruining your child's life by over-scheduling.

I could go on in this vein for a VERY long time.

I completely agree with you that fathers are not given enough credit for their ability to parent. But some sort of warm, uplifting general regard for motherhood from all quarters? Please.

I'm glad you posted this Soz. I didn't have time to get into this area last night and you covered all the bases.

Like yourself, I could go on and on!

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sozobe wrote:

I agree with all of that.

I was arguing with the notion that mothers are the recipients of "nothing but support and praise for the virtue of motherhood."

I think honoring childrearing -- no matter who does it -- would benefit everyone, and that's something I would love to see.

Same here!

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ebrown, lots still needs to change and I'm hoping we can all make it to comfortable ground.

I've had men tell me that women were put on this earth to serve men and countless of other stupid things to that effect and I'd just like you to try to put yourself in our shoes a little and think about what we've had to go through since the beginning of time.

I don't know what the statistics are for parents who have abandoned their children, but I do know that men abandoning their kids far out weighs the women who take off and I'm thinking the courts may be looking at this where custody is concerned.

Custody battles are tough and I think every case should be treated differently because every situation is different. I see a lot more joint custody given, so they're at least getting somewhere in that regard.

Oh, and I've heard the term "deadbeat mom" ;-)

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Or as they're called here, "crack ho mofos".

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Feminist are better in bed

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