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Will 2008 be a turning-point election?

 
 
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 02:10 pm
Historians of American politics have often singled out certain presidential contests as being "turning-point elections." These are elections where there has been a substantial shift in electoral alliances, occasionally so massive that it inaugurates an entirely new "party system." Historians often single out the elections of 1800, 1832, 1860, 1896, 1932, and 1968 as such "turning-points." For instance, the 1968 election saw Nixon's "Southern strategy" successfully turn the once-solidly Democratic South into a bastion for the GOP. In 1932, it was the FDR New Deal coalition that wooed blacks and organized labor into the Democratic camp. In each of these elections, then, a portion of the electorate that had once been aligned with one party drifted over to another party, thus transforming politics for a generation or more.

If history is any guide, these turning-points take place at roughly 28-36 year intervals. The last turning-point election, 1968, should have therefore been followed by another turning-point in 2000 or 2004. Those elections, however, were about as static as any elections could be (only three states, NM, IA, and NH, switched party categories in those elections). No major shifts in allegiance there, even though Karl Rove fancied himself as a modern-day Mark Hanna and explicitly sought to replicate the transformative election of 1896. As he stated in anticipation of the 2000 contest: "'I look at this time as 1896, the time where we saw the rise of William McKinley and his vice president, Teddy Roosevelt ... That was the last time we had a shift in political paradigm,' Rove told the Austin American-Statesman in November 1998." Which only shows that Rove was as bad a historian as he was a prognosticator (not only did Rove forget about 1932 and 1968 as "paradigm shifts," he forgot that Teddy Roosevelt wasn't McKinley's running-mate in 1896).

If there is any validity to the theory of turning-point elections, then, we are overdue for one now. The same electoral alliances that were bred from Nixon's 1968 campaign were in place in 2004: Southern whites, evangelicals, law-and-order urbanites, suburban fiscal conservatives, and farmers/rural "libertarians" on the Republican side; urban liberals, blacks, union members, and college-educated "humanists" on the Democratic side. The question, then, is: what sort of electoral realignment might take place in 2008?

I think it's quite possible for there to be a major shift in electoral alliances in 2008. We have already seen inklings of it in the results of the 2006 congressional races. As I see it, there are three likely groups that are dissatisfied enough with the current alignment that they might shift their political allegiances:
    [b]1. Social moderates/fiscal conservatives[/b]: Call them the "Jesse Ventura Republicans." These are people who place far more emphasis on economic issues balanced budgets and free trade than on social issues like abortion and gay rights. Currently, many of them feel that their concerns are being ignored by the GOP, which is catering to the evangelical wing of their party while neglecting core conservative fiscal values handed down since the era of William McKinley (1896, by the way, was a turning-point election because the "hard-money" Democrats split from their party and joined the Republicans -- it would be ironic if Rove finally gets his 1896-style turning point election in 2008 when "hard-money" Republicans split from their party and join the Democrats). [b]2. Suburbanites[/b]: Dwight Eisenhower essentially created American suburbia. Through the massive federal highway programs of the 1950s, large numbers of urban dwellers finally had the means of living in the suburbs while commuting to the cities. This first-generation of suburbanites tended to be white, middle-class, and increasingly conservative, as their wealth was often tied to their homes, and the value of their homes was, in turn, tied to the maintenance of the status quo in their communities. That meant that suburbanites wanted, above all else, to avoid the evils of the urban core (read: living near blacks and other minorities). Two things have changed over the past forty years, however: (a) suburbs are becoming to look more and more like the rest of the country; and (b) as the first-generation suburbanites are dying off, their kids are turning out to be more tolerant of racial and ethnic diversity. The proverbial "soccer moms" are, on the whole, more interested in educational reforms than they are fearful of a black family moving in next door. And like the "Jesse Ventura Republicans," they are less socially conservative (and more highly educated) than the evangelical wing of the Republican Party, to which they have been attached since Ike's administration. [b]3. Western "libertarians"[/b]: These are the "gummint oughta' mind its own binness" kind of "libertarians," the ones who place individual rights above everything else. Although one can find these types everywhere, they're especially prominent in the Rocky Mountain region -- Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada (but not Utah). Long affiliated with a Republican Party that has proclaimed its adherence to the principles of "small government," they have lately been showing signs of restlessness over the Bush administration's eagerness to encroach on individual liberties. In the 2006 elections, the Rocky Mountain region was a fertile ground for Democratic gains (e.g. the elections of Bill Ritter as Colorado governor and Jon Tester as senator from Montana).

If any of these groups splits from the GOP, it would be significant. If two or more of them split, I think it would be safe to say that it would constitute a turning-point election. Much depends, however, on the candidates who are ultimately nominated as the standard-bearers for their parties.

I think that the nomination of Rudy Giuliani can, all by itself, potentially cripple if not destroy the Republican Party. It would, as the Marxists might say, "heighten the antagonisms" that already threaten to split the party. Evangelical Christians will either have to hold their collective nose and vote for a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate, abstain from participating, or split off into a political wilderness of one-issue third-parties and electoral impotence. None of those options is particularly attractive, and so it is likely that all three will be followed.

Any other candidate besides Giuliani (even Romney) will be able to hold onto the evangelical wing of the party, but with every passing day it becomes less and less likely that they will be able to maintain control over the three groups identified above. In large part, that's because of the war (you were wondering when I'd mention that, weren't you?). The war in Iraq is the kind of single, momentous event that can catalyze these disparate electoral reactions, just as the depressions of the 1890s and 1930s and the civil rights movement led to the electoral realignments of 1896, 1932, and 1968. The war is the kind of event that, oddly enough, Karl Rove hoped to base an electoral realignment upon (Atlantic Monthly sub. req'd), and which he thought the attacks of 9/11 would be (they weren't). Rather than the fortuitous event of 9/11 being the basis for a turning-point election in favor of the GOP in 2004, however, it was calculated event of the Iraq war that has provided the possible basis for a turning-point election in favor of the Democrats in 2008.

Of course, just as the GOP candidate is an important ingredient in this mix, so too is the Democratic candidate. As I see it, all of the Democratic contenders could take advantage of the possible electoral realignments outlined above and make 2008 into a turning-point election -- except for one: Hillary Clinton. Clinton has the unique ability, among all the Democratic candidates, of uniting disparate and otherwise irreconcilable elements of the GOP behind a common issue: their abiding hatred of Hillary Clinton. Persons who might be tempted to desert the GOP over ideological issues, therefore, might be persuaded to stay put out of sheer animosity toward the Clintons. Just as Giuliani has the singular ability of crippling the GOP, then, Clinton has the singular ability of delaying or even quashing the kind of electoral realignment that history says is now overdue.

Oddly enough, it is Giuliani and Clinton who are currently leading their respective parties in the national polls. Both parties, it seems, are intent upon nominating the one candidate who can single-handedly destroy their best chances for electoral success -- Giuliani by splintering the GOP, Clinton by solidifying the post-1968 electoral alignment. If it is a Giuliani-Clinton election, then, we may be faced with a turning-point election that perversely refuses to turn.
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 02:38 pm
Really excellent analysis! I think I agree with everything (I'll have to read it a few more times to be sure), but most especially those last two paragraphs.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 02:53 pm
JoeFC
A thought-provoking thread .
May I pay my regards and respects.
As a global citizen living in Germany I am of the opinion that USA's preseidential election is faulty to the core.
This two party system is rotten to the core as well.
Don't expect any change..
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 06:52 pm
That's why Butler lost to MacMillan.

Great essay though Joe but I agree with Rama that any significant change is unlikely. Which is as it should be.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 07:17 pm
The war in Iraq may end shortly after the election (maybe not). I don't expect the basic attitudes and opinions of Americans to change enough to cause such a shift - although, if the new president managed to get universal health care approved, I think that one's party will become dominant for a few elections more.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 07:35 pm
Re: Will 2008 be a turning-point election?
joefromchicago wrote:
3. Western "libertarians": These are the "gummint oughta' mind its own binness" kind of "libertarians," the ones who place individual rights above everything else. Although one can find these types everywhere, they're especially prominent in the Rocky Mountain region -- Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada (but not Utah). Long affiliated with a Republican Party that has proclaimed its adherence to the principles of "small government," they have lately been showing signs of restlessness over the Bush administration's eagerness to encroach on individual liberties. In the 2006 elections, the Rocky Mountain region was a fertile ground for Democratic gains (e.g. the elections of Bill Ritter as Colorado governor and Jon Tester as senator from Montana).[/list]


Hate to disappoint you again, joe, but when you talk to these people on the subject water projects, it's government first, last, and always. President Carter's hit list of water projects cost him the second before the term "hostage crisis" had entered the language.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:44 am
Re: Will 2008 be a turning-point election?
roger wrote:
Hate to disappoint you again, joe, but when you talk to these people on the subject water projects, it's government first, last, and always. President Carter's hit list of water projects cost him the second before the term "hostage crisis" had entered the language.

No disappointment here. Most people who complain about "big government" temper their criticism when it comes to government programs that help them, and western "libertarians" are no exception. Indeed, government largesse tends to flow disproportionately toward Republican congressional districts, which makes one wonder how GOP voters would react if they elected someone who actually followed through on promises of cutting the size of the federal government.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 10:34 am
Pretty bright and thorough analysis, joe.
Quote:
If any of these groups splits from the GOP, it would be significant. If two or more of them split, I think it would be safe to say that it would constitute a turning-point election. Much depends, however, on the candidates who are ultimately nominated as the standard-bearers for their parties.

I think that the nomination of Rudy Giuliani can, all by itself, potentially cripple if not destroy the Republican Party. It would, as the Marxists might say, "heighten the antagonisms" that already threaten to split the party. Evangelical Christians will either have to hold their collective nose and vote for a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate, abstain from participating, or split off into a political wilderness of one-issue third-parties and electoral impotence. None of those options is particularly attractive, and so it is likely that all three will be followed.

Though I (like many others) accepted the conventional wisdom that Giuliani had no chance of gaining the Republican nomination because of conflicts with the religious wing of the party, I now believe it's likely he will be their nominee. Dobson is an unknown but the evangelicals generally have been unexpectedly unprincipled on their principles (I guess I should have figured that). Recognition of the threat to Republican power, the best umbrella situation for politicized evangelicals in the new conservative movement, is what has made them waver.

But the religious right is now. for a bunch of reasons, undergoing a lot of change and diversification, their previous relative unanimity evaporating. That looks inevitable now regardless of nominee.

More broadly, the folks who have been voting republican for the last number of elections, look to have a substantially dilluted allegiance presently.

So, my guess is that Rudy will be the nominee, that this process itself will further tear at the Republican or conservative movement consensus, and finally, that if Rudy gets the nomination and then loses the election (with congress and senate remaining Dem) then a bunch of forces working to rip apart the Republican universe will really come into play.

Quote:
Of course, just as the GOP candidate is an important ingredient in this mix, so too is the Democratic candidate. As I see it, all of the Democratic contenders could take advantage of the possible electoral realignments outlined above and make 2008 into a turning-point election -- except for one: Hillary Clinton. Clinton has the unique ability, among all the Democratic candidates, of uniting disparate and otherwise irreconcilable elements of the GOP behind a common issue: their abiding hatred of Hillary Clinton. Persons who might be tempted to desert the GOP over ideological issues, therefore, might be persuaded to stay put out of sheer animosity toward the Clintons. Just as Giuliani has the singular ability of crippling the GOP, then, Clinton has the singular ability of delaying or even quashing the kind of electoral realignment that history says is now overdue.

You may have this right, but I don't think you do. It seems the case that Clinton-hate will galvanize some percentage of the typical Republican base and will act to maintain consensus within that party. But we don't know how strong that will really be. And it is surely predictable that the core rightwinger/Republican types (and their reps in the media/propaganda universe) will be little less ugly and dedicated if Obama or Edwards is the nominee. Along with that consideration is the broad affinity/approval for Bill Clinton among moderates who are flocking away from the Republicans now. ****, even Scaife just had a two hour sitdown with Bill and came out saying he "had respect" for Bill. I contend that just as Hillary has changed a lot of minds about her within the Dem party, she will do so in the general.

Frankly, I am a bit more worried about the gender matter. Susan Faludi has been writing on this lately at TPM... here
The problem seems not so much that Hillary is Hillary but rather that she owns a vagina. But that is two sided because just as men might vote against a vagina, a lot of women voters probably will wish to "give puss a chance", we might say.

I suspect also that where a big Dem win is likely to really toss the conservative movement into fly-apart destruction, a Clinton win will be uniquely demoralizing to the core crowd.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 10:57 am
a little ps here...

Rudy might get it in the neck prior to the nomination (for sure after) regarding the Kerik matter. We'll see.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 11:01 am
Seems to me that a turning point is a sudden occurrence. Like when Bush took power. It seems that when he came to be president things changed very fast and very dramatically - a turning point in a bad way.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 11:53 am
Re: Will 2008 be a turning-point election?
joefromchicago wrote:
I think that the nomination of Rudy Giuliani can, all by itself, potentially cripple if not destroy the Republican Party.

Thats odd. I'd say that it's Giuliani who would be by far best placed to keep each of the three potential swing blocs you identify inside the Republican Party. He'd keep both the Jesse Ventura Republicans and the Western libertarians on board against pretty much any Democrat, and should be able to keep half the suburbanites against pretty much any of the Democratic frontrunners as well.

Yes, he would have trouble with the conservative evangelicals. But that trouble would be lessened in impact by the splintered way you already identify in which the evangelicals would react. If they'd solidly break off into a third party, the Republican Party as it is would hurtle into an existential crisis. But that's not going to happen. They are more likely to go a little way each - some will break away if and when a credible third party candidate emerges (and I'm betting there won't be one); some will sit the elections out (though I'm betting far fewer would than some now predict); and some will vote for Giuliani anyway.

The result is that even if enough votes might be siphoned off to make Giuliani lose the election, it wouldn't be enough to make it a landmark kind of defeat. He will lose by a narrow margin, while holding most of the three swing blocs you identify inside the camp, and the Republican coalition lives on to fight another day.

Thats one of the two reasons Giuliani is the Republican candidate I fear the most. I dont believe the Dems are necessarily cruising towards a victory next year. It all depends on which presidential candidates win the nomination. If the Republicans choose the right candidate, and the Democrats the wrong one, the field will be totally open again. Not open enough for the Dems to lose the Senate, the math of the open contests are too stacked in favor of them for that, but the Presidency could easily still go the Republicans' way.

Who are the 'right' and the 'wrong' candidates? I think Giuliani is the man to fear on the Republican side. I dont see Romney winning anything: too weak, ineffectual, and opportunistic to make a big impression on the electorate any which way. McCain would have the second best cards after Rudy to at least woo Independent voters back to voting Republican one more time, but he's boxed into an at least as disadvantageous position with his own party's base as Giuliani is. Fred Thompson is a snooze, and has all but lost his chances at winning the nomination anyway. Huckabee is too much of a fundamentalist to win over the centre ground.

The Democrats? I am sceptical about the argument you make against Hillary. You write that "Clinton has the unique ability, among all the Democratic candidates, of uniting disparate and otherwise irreconcilable elements of the GOP behind a common issue". But her favouribility ratings in the opinion polls belie the assumption that she has no chance at winning over much of both the suburbanite voter block you identify and the "social moderates/fiscal conservatives". Her favourables are consistently somewhere near or around 50%, which means that at least a portion of independent and floating voters like those must regard her favourably. And that is after fifteen years of conservative partisans banging the anti-Hillary drum; there is little new that can be said about her that would still suddenly drive opinion of her down.

Her unfavoribility ratings, meanwhile, are of course high - near or around 40%. The Republican base, for sure, hates her. But the Republican base alone, even when you add the Western libertarians (who I agree are not likely to vote for her), is not enough to keep her from victory. At worst, it would be a touch and go result, the electorate divided 50/50 again.

You will argue, of course, that that's your point - OK, even if Hillary wont quite ensure, by her presence alone, that the whole Republican coalition that voted Bush in with 52% of the vote in 2004 stays together, still it's clear that with Hillary, the Dems wont go much above 50% either. She'll guarantee the status quo of entrenched camps. But do you really think that would be so different with the other Democratic candidates? I'm doubtful.

When it comes to those swing blocks you identify, I dont see them responding to Obama or Edwards much differently than to Hillary. Hillary might not get the Western libertarians, but I dont see Obama winning them over either, while Edwards would have trouble winning over the socially moderate/fiscal conservative block you mention, with his economic populism. In the end, each of them stands a good chance of winning two out of three blocks as long as Giuliani is not the Republican candidate (OK, one out of three if it's McCain, who should be able to hold on to the Western libertarians).

That leaves the uniquely mobilising effect a Hillary candidacy would have on core Republicans. Again I'm not convinced. Do you really think that white, conservative evangelicals who would turn out to the ballot box en masse just to defeat Hillary Clinton, would equanimously watch the tele at home to see the country elect a black liberal as President? I dont think so... that sounds fairly pie in the sky to me.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 12:09 pm
My bottom line is that I think Edwards is the most electable Democrat, but that more depends on who the Republican is. Each of the three Democrats should stand a chance against Romney, McCain or Thompson. And each would have to fight trench warfare to make it against Giuliani.

I admit that chances of a turning-point election are slim with Hillary as candidate - against Giuliani and probably McCain, at least, you're pretty much guaranteed a close election result. But you'll have a candidate who's tough and sly enough to have a good chance in such a close election - she seems well prepared for trench warfare.

Meanwhile, with Obama or Edwards, chances of a further breakthrough might be bigger - but so are chances of falling back below further, especially against a candidate as tough and tricky as Giuliani. I think Obama is particularly vulnerable, with what I see as a naive outlook on how presidential elections work and how you should approach them. He just doesnt seem prepared for the hard stuff.

In fact, come to think of it - there could be some mutual reinforcement going on here. As long as Giuliani is portrayed and polling as the Republican frontrunner, Democratic voters will scramble for the toughest contender they've got - and justifiably or not, Hillary's wearing that number. Just like one of the main ways Giuliani appeals to Republican voters is to keep hammering home the anti-Hillary message, implying he's the one best able to fend her off. You could speculate that as soon as Romney, for example, takes the lead in the Republican primary (and he's running far ahead now in both Iowa and New Hampshire and moving up in South Carolina), Democratic voters might feel more safe at taking a bit of a risk themselves.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 12:24 pm
blatham wrote:
But the religious right is now. for a bunch of reasons, undergoing a lot of change and diversification, their previous relative unanimity evaporating. That looks inevitable now regardless of nominee.

I'd like to believe that's the case, but I'm not convinced. It's true that a new strain of evangelism, focusing on the less punitive aspects of Christianity, has recently emerged (although it simply mirrors what social justice advocates in the Catholic church have been doing for decades). For a variety of reasons, however, I don't see this as having very much political impact.

In general, people in the reality-based world have consistently underestimated the resilience and tenacity of the religious right. And so I don't count them out now, not by a long shot.

blatham wrote:
More broadly, the folks who have been voting republican for the last number of elections, look to have a substantially dilluted allegiance presently.

I think that's accurate. In large part, that's due to the profound disillusionment caused by the titanic fiasco that is George W. Bush and his administration.

blatham wrote:
You may have this right, but I don't think you do. It seems the case that Clinton-hate will galvanize some percentage of the typical Republican base and will act to maintain consensus within that party. But we don't know how strong that will really be. And it is surely predictable that the core rightwinger/Republican types (and their reps in the media/propaganda universe) will be little less ugly and dedicated if Obama or Edwards is the nominee. Along with that consideration is the broad affinity/approval for Bill Clinton among moderates who are flocking away from the Republicans now. ****, even Scaife just had a two hour sitdown with Bill and came out saying he "had respect" for Bill. I contend that just as Hillary has changed a lot of minds about her within the Dem party, she will do so in the general.

Just as I don't underestimate the evangelical right, I don't underestimate the enormous hatred felt by a large swath of the GOP for the Clintons.

blatham wrote:
Frankly, I am a bit more worried about the gender matter. Susan Faludi has been writing on this lately at TPM... here
The problem seems not so much that Hillary is Hillary but rather that she owns a vagina. But that is two sided because just as men might vote against a vagina, a lot of women voters probably will wish to "give puss a chance", we might say.

Speaking for myself, I'm largely indifferent to Hillary Clinton's vagina. I have a much bigger problem with her support of the Iraq war.

blatham wrote:
I suspect also that where a big Dem win is likely to really toss the conservative movement into fly-apart destruction, a Clinton win will be uniquely demoralizing to the core crowd.

I disagree. I think it will be uniquely energizing for them.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 12:48 pm
Re: Will 2008 be a turning-point election?
nimh wrote:
Thats odd. I'd say that it's Giuliani who would be by far best placed to keep each of the three potential swing blocs you identify inside the Republican Party. He'd keep both the Jesse Ventura Republicans and the Western libertarians on board against pretty much any Democrat, and should be able to keep half the suburbanites against pretty much any of the Democratic frontrunners as well.

I base that conclusion on the assumption that Giuliani, if nominated, will continue to run as essentially George W. Bush on steroids. The groups that I identified are disillusioned because the core principles of the GOP and the rhetoric of this administration are so completely at odds with the way the Bush administration has actually governed. The prospect of getting a president who has promised to carry forward with many of Bush's policies (and who is completely insane in the bargain) will, I think, prove too much to bear for the three groups that I identified.

It might be tempting, for instance, to think that Giuliani can hang onto the social moderates/fiscal conservatives because of his positions on abortion and gay rights, but he has done nothing to show that he will be any less fiscally irresponsible than Bush. I just don't think that that constituency will be satisfied with half a loaf any longer, especially if the Democratic candidate offers the full loaf.

So if Giuliani is nominated, he won't present the kind of alternative to a continuation of Bush's failed policies that have alienated those key constituencies from the GOP. Furthermore, a Giuliani candidacy would splinter one of the GOP's remaining core constituencies: white evangelicals. That leaves white southerners and urban "law-and-order" types. That would consign the Republicans to being a powerful regional party and, if the split persists, into only an occasional player on the national political stage.

nimh wrote:
They are more likely to go a little way each - some will break away if and when a credible third party candidate emerges (and I'm betting there won't be one); some will sit the elections out (though I'm betting far fewer would than some now predict); and some will vote for Giuliani anyway.

That's exactly what I said.
joefromchicago wrote:
Evangelical Christians will either have to hold their collective nose and vote for a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate, abstain from participating, or split off into a political wilderness of one-issue third-parties and electoral impotence. None of those options is particularly attractive, and so it is likely that all three will be followed.


nimh wrote:
Who are the 'right' and the 'wrong' candidates? I think Giuliani is the man to fear on the Republican side. I dont see Romney winning anything: too weak, ineffectual, and opportunistic to make a big impression on the electorate any which way. McCain would have the second best cards after Rudy to at least woo Independent voters back to voting Republican one more time, but he's boxed into an at least as disadvantageous position with his own party's base as Giuliani is. Fred Thompson is a snooze, and has all but lost his chances at winning the nomination anyway. Huckabee is too much of a fundamentalist to win over the centre ground.

I still believe that, in the end, it will be Romney who is the GOP candidate.

nimh wrote:
The Democrats? I am sceptical about the argument you make against Hillary. You write that "Clinton has the unique ability, among all the Democratic candidates, of uniting disparate and otherwise irreconcilable elements of the GOP behind a common issue". But her favouribility ratings in the opinion polls belie the assumption that she has no chance at winning over much of both the suburbanite voter block you identify and the "social moderates/fiscal conservatives". Her favourables are consistently somewhere near or around 50%, which means that at least a portion of independent and floating voters like those must regard her favourably. And that is after fifteen years of conservative partisans banging the anti-Hillary drum; there is little new that can be said about her that would still suddenly drive opinion of her down.

Given the fact that the American electorate was split almost exactly down the middle in the last two presidential contests, and given the unfavorable views of most Americans toward the Bush administration and the Republican party, I don't think it would be all that difficult for any of the Democratic candidates to win in the general election, and that goes for Clinton as well. It's not that I don't think she can win, it's that I don't think she can draw the core constituencies away from the GOP, in the same way that Nixon drew white southerners to the GOP in 1968 or FDR drew blacks and organized labor into the Democratic party in 1932. Clinton will most certainly get the votes of some people who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004, but I don't think she can effect the sort of realignment that will permanently shift the political boundaries for the next 30-some years.

nimh wrote:
You will argue, of course, that that's your point - OK, even if Hillary wont quite ensure, by her presence alone, that the whole Republican coalition that voted Bush in with 52% of the vote in 2004 stays together, still it's clear that with Hillary, the Dems wont go much above 50% either. She'll guarantee the status quo of entrenched camps. But do you really think that would be so different with the other Democratic candidates? I'm doubtful.

Yes, I do think that. That's my entire point.

nimh wrote:
That leaves the uniquely mobilising effect a Hillary candidacy would have on core Republicans. Again I'm not convinced. Do you really think that white, conservative evangelicals who would turn out to the ballot box en masse just to defeat Hillary Clinton, would equanimously watch the tele at home to see the country elect a black liberal as President? I dont think so... that sounds fairly pie in the sky to me.

I too can't see that. But then I never said that the white evangelicals were one of the groups that might bolt the GOP. The Republican candidate (as long as he's not Giuliani) can depend on the large-scale support of the evangelical right. But that constituency can't win a national election by itself.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 02:05 pm
I dont know, the more you say the more it's all a bit muddled, Joe.

You are saying that the Democrats have a good chance to break through the current status quo and pry potential switch blocks away from the Republican party -- the social moderate/fiscal conservatives, the suburbanites, the Western libertarians -- IF and only as long as they dont nominate Hillary. So Edwards or Obama would be able to achieve such a landmark breakthrough, but Hillary wouldnt. This because "the abiding hatred of Hillary Clinton" would unite "disparate and otherwise irreconcilable elements of the GOP" in a way neither of the other candidates would.

But it's not the potential swing blocs, not the suburbanites and the socially moderate fiscal conservatives for example, who are fired up by hate of Hillary. The hardcore conservative base, yes, they hate Hillary with a passion uncontested. But for more centre-ground voters like the voter groups you describe, it's just not that much of an issue. And that conservative hardcore, white evangelicals and all, will remain reliably Republican no matter who the Democrat is, you already note (at least as long as Giuliani isnt the Republican in the race) - so that doesnt make for much difference between the Democratic candidates either.

Simple math: if you look at her favourability ratings, you see that, varying somewhat from pollster to pollster, roughly 50% views her favourably, and around 40% regards her unfavourably. And those polls who distinguish between mostly/somewhat unfavourable and very unfavourable pin the group that has very negative views of her at around 20-25%. All of these numbers have remained roughly stable for years now. So yes, Hillary hatred will play a mobilisational role, but only among the real Republican hard core, not among more moderate potential swing blocs like the ones you describe.

Regarding your argument on Giuliani, I see the same kind of muddle. You write:

Quote:
I think that the nomination of Rudy Giuliani can, all by itself, potentially cripple if not destroy the Republican Party. It would [..] "heighten the antagonisms" that already threaten to split the party. Evangelical Christians will either have to hold their collective nose and vote for a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate, abstain from participating, or split off into a political wilderness of one-issue third-parties and electoral impotence. [..]

Any other candidate besides Giuliani (even Romney) will be able to hold onto the evangelical wing of the party, but with every passing day it becomes less and less likely that they will be able to maintain control over the three groups identified above.

What I get from this - and I would agree - is that Giuliani might have a problem with the evangelical wing, but that the other candidates, while they would hold on to the white evangelicals, would stand to lose the Republican grip on the three swing blocs you identify.

But doesnt that make Giuliani the best placed candidate for the long-term future of the party - for preventing the kind of Democratic breakthrough you describe? He might or might not lose some conservative evangelicals, it's true - and I don't think he'd ultimately lose a whole bunch, as both Hillary and a black liberal like Obama will surely scare most of them into that nosepeg vote for the Republican. But like you already say, it's not the momentary loss of the evangelical vote that would change the political landscape fundamentally anyway. Even those who refused to cast even a nose-peg vote for Giuliani would be back next time.

The real chance of political realignment, as you lay it out, lies in the other prospect: that of the constituencies you describe changing sides, the suburbanites, the Western libertarians. And it's hard to see how Giuliani's Republican rivals would do better than him with those groups. You might be sceptical about whether socially moderate fiscal conservatives can be persuaded that Giuliani will be less fiscally irresponsible than Bush -- but do you really think that Fred Thompson would win over more of these voters? Or born-again-conservative Mitt Romney? Not to mention bible thumper Huckabee?

You might be right that those socially moderate/fiscal conservatives will not buy into Giuliani's current anti-tax rhetorics -- though it'd be unwise to overestimate how much voters will really absorb about his past track record, beyond 9/11. But if you dont think that Giuliani can win over this group, then I dont see how the others would be able to. Same with suburbanites: one can hope that they wont fall for Giuliani's neocon on steroids routine, but it's hard to see how they would shrug off Giuliani's appeal but be receptive to Mitt "double Guantanamo" Romney's, or Fred's snoozer act.

In short, I agree, roughly, with your lay-out of potential switch voter blocks, and with the vista of how they could, at least theoretically, combine into a political realignment of systemic proportions. I'm not holding my breath, but you have laid out how it could happen hypothetically. The part of the argument that I think is muddled is the bit about how Giuliani and Hillary are the worst possible candidates for their respective camps.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 02:19 pm
A huge shift is taking place in the American landscape, as we cross the boundary that separates a republic from an empire, and that is the emergence of dynastic politics. No American seems to have yet noticed that American presidential elections seem to be morphing into combat between rival royal families, but Chrystia Freeland, the managing editor of the Financial Times and a Canadian citizen, has:

"What's really interesting for me in looking at the international reaction to the U.S. presidential race and the American one, is outside the United States, people are a lot more concerned about this idea that America is being governed by two dynasties. And yet, that notion doesn't seem to have captured the public attention or really to be being used by Clinton's opponents."
http://antiwar.com/justin/
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 03:55 pm
Quote:
blatham wrote:
I suspect also that where a big Dem win is likely to really toss the conservative movement into fly-apart destruction, a Clinton win will be uniquely demoralizing to the core crowd.

joe wrote:
I disagree. I think it will be uniquely energizing for them.


joe
To clarify, I meant the consequences that could follow if Hillary won the general election. When Bill won in 92, Ralph Reed went into a serious depression and temporarily left politics, for example.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 08:52 pm
nimh wrote:
But it's not the potential swing blocs, not the suburbanites and the socially moderate fiscal conservatives for example, who are fired up by hate of Hillary. The hardcore conservative base, yes, they hate Hillary with a passion uncontested. But for more centre-ground voters like the voter groups you describe, it's just not that much of an issue. And that conservative hardcore, white evangelicals and all, will remain reliably Republican no matter who the Democrat is, you already note (at least as long as Giuliani isnt the Republican in the race) - so that doesnt make for much difference between the Democratic candidates either.

Simple math: if you look at her favourability ratings, you see that, varying somewhat from pollster to pollster, roughly 50% views her favourably, and around 40% regards her unfavourably. And those polls who distinguish between mostly/somewhat unfavourable and very unfavourable pin the group that has very negative views of her at around 20-25%. All of these numbers have remained roughly stable for years now. So yes, Hillary hatred will play a mobilisational role, but only among the real Republican hard core, not among more moderate potential swing blocs like the ones you describe.

If 40% of the voters don't like Hillary, we can assume that many of them are also Republicans. Let's say that one-quarter of the "I hate Hillary" crowd are persons who voted for Kerry in the last election and three-quarters of them voted for Bush. Since half of the electorate voted for Bush, that means that roughly 60% of Bush voters (30% of 50%) are also Hillary-haters. That means that the "I hate Hillary" crowd has to be spread across all segments of the Republican voting bloc. In other words, people who I would describe as social moderates/fiscal conservatives, suburbanites, and western "libertarians" contain their fair share of Hillary-haters too.

Now, to be sure, there are a lot of people who voted for Bush who are now ready to vote for a Democratic candidate, even if that candidate happens to be Hillary Clinton. I just don't see her drawing off large segments of that electorate and keeping them in the Democratic fold.

nimh wrote:
Regarding your argument on Giuliani, I see the same kind of muddle. ...
What I get from this - and I would agree - is that Giuliani might have a problem with the evangelical wing, but that the other candidates, while they would hold on to the white evangelicals, would stand to lose the Republican grip on the three swing blocs you identify.

But doesnt that make Giuliani the best placed candidate for the long-term future of the party - for preventing the kind of Democratic breakthrough you describe? He might or might not lose some conservative evangelicals, it's true - and I don't think he'd ultimately lose a whole bunch, as both Hillary and a black liberal like Obama will surely scare most of them into that nosepeg vote for the Republican. But like you already say, it's not the momentary loss of the evangelical vote that would change the political landscape fundamentally anyway. Even those who refused to cast even a nose-peg vote for Giuliani would be back next time.

Maybe, but then again maybe not. As I said, I think all three "fence-sitting" groups that I identified could bolt to the Democratic Party as long as Clinton is not the nominee. It really doesn't matter, then, if Giuliani is the GOP candidate or Romney or McCain or anybody else (except maybe Ron Paul, but we're dealing with reality here). Those groups are on the verge of leaving the GOP for good. That's what would make 2008 a turning-point election. Not the momentary defection of some Republican voters, but the permanent realignment of voting blocs.

nimh wrote:
The real chance of political realignment, as you lay it out, lies in the other prospect: that of the constituencies you describe changing sides, the suburbanites, the Western libertarians. And it's hard to see how Giuliani's Republican rivals would do better than him with those groups. You might be sceptical about whether socially moderate fiscal conservatives can be persuaded that Giuliani will be less fiscally irresponsible than Bush -- but do you really think that Fred Thompson would win over more of these voters? Or born-again-conservative Mitt Romney? Not to mention bible thumper Huckabee?

No, I don't think that Romney or Thompson would do a better job than Giuliani in holding onto those groups. But then I never said that they would. I just said that Giuliani had the unique ability to destroy the Republican Party, because he also has the unique ability to alienate the evangelical wing of the party, something that his rivals wouldn't do.

nimh wrote:
You might be right that those socially moderate/fiscal conservatives will not buy into Giuliani's current anti-tax rhetorics -- though it'd be unwise to overestimate how much voters will really absorb about his past track record, beyond 9/11. But if you dont think that Giuliani can win over this group, then I dont see how the others would be able to. Same with suburbanites: one can hope that they wont fall for Giuliani's neocon on steroids routine, but it's hard to see how they would shrug off Giuliani's appeal but be receptive to Mitt "double Guantanamo" Romney's, or Fred's snoozer act.

I must have explained my position extremely poorly, because you have completely missed the point. I'll repeat: I'm not saying that Giuliani, alone among the Republican candidates, could potentially lose the three "fence-sitter" groups that I identified. I think that's a problem for all of the GOP candidates, especially since none of them (except Paul) has disavowed the main policies of th Bush administration. I just think that Giuliani has the added ability of losing the evangelical wing of the party too.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 08:55 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
blatham wrote:
I suspect also that where a big Dem win is likely to really toss the conservative movement into fly-apart destruction, a Clinton win will be uniquely demoralizing to the core crowd.

joe wrote:
I disagree. I think it will be uniquely energizing for them.


joe
To clarify, I meant the consequences that could follow if Hillary won the general election. When Bill won in 92, Ralph Reed went into a serious depression and temporarily left politics, for example.

I understood your point. I just think that the rabid right will be energized by being in the opposition. The Rush Limbaugh crowd is much more comfortable criticizing a Democratic administration than having to defend the disastrously unpopular policies of a Republican administration.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 06:02 am
joefromchicago wrote:
If 40% of the voters don't like Hillary, we can assume that many of them are also Republicans. Let's say that one-quarter of the "I hate Hillary" crowd are persons who voted for Kerry in the last election and three-quarters of them voted for Bush. Since half of the electorate voted for Bush, that means that roughly 60% of Bush voters (30% of 50%) are also Hillary-haters. That means that the "I hate Hillary" crowd has to be spread across all segments of the Republican voting bloc. In other words, people who I would describe as social moderates/fiscal conservatives, suburbanites, and western "libertarians" contain their fair share of Hillary-haters too.

Wow, but thats a lot of random inferences! What makes you think that as much as a quarter of voters who opted even for Kerry, the weakest Democratic candidate in a decade, would "hate" Hillary? There certainly is no data to confirm such a guess: unlike what sentiments on political forums like these would suggest, polls show Hillary actually doing very well among Democratic voters time and again.

And what makes you think that if "roughly 60%" of Bush voters view Hillary unfavourably, they must be "spread across all segments of the Republican voting bloc"? Wouldnt it be far less counterintuitive to assume that the Hillary-haters are actually strongly concentrated in the most conservative, bedrock Republican constituencies?

And how do you translate polls showing that 40% of voters view Hillary unfavourably into there being 40% "Hillary-haters"? When I already mentioned (and linked in the data) that of that 40%, only slightly over half actually viewed her "strongly" or "very" negatively?

I like the thought experiment you're doing. I mean, this is definitively one of the more interesting threads that's come along in some time. But this is too much random speculation for me, especially since it goes counter to what all the polling out there, for whatever it's worth, is saying.

joefromchicago wrote:
As I said, I think all three "fence-sitting" groups that I identified could bolt to the Democratic Party as long as Clinton is not the nominee. It really doesn't matter, then, if Giuliani is the GOP candidate or Romney or McCain or anybody else [..]. Those groups are on the verge of leaving the GOP for good. That's what would make 2008 a turning-point election. Not the momentary defection of some Republican voters, but the permanent realignment of voting blocs.


Well, obviously thats a judgement call, but that kind of interesting speculation is what a thread like this is about. I doubt it, but I'm hoping you're right, of course.

What I'm still unclear about is why you think that suburbanites and socially liberal fiscal conservatives could very well bolt to Obama or Edwards against any Republican, Giuliani included, but would vote for Romney or Fred Thompson or even Huckabee over Hillary. I mean, it's clear that that's your argument, I just don't see how you argue it. Same with saying that Western libertarians would stick even with Romney against Hillary, but would be happy enough to vote for a black liberal. I dont know what that would be based on.

joefromchicago wrote:
No, I don't think that Romney or Thompson would do a better job than Giuliani in holding onto those groups. But then I never said that they would. I just said that Giuliani had the unique ability to destroy the Republican Party, because he also has the unique ability to alienate the evangelical wing of the party, something that his rivals wouldn't do.


Destroy the Republican Party? But we already agreed that, in your words,

    Evangelical Christians will either have to hold their collective nose and vote for a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate, abstain from participating, or split off into a political wilderness of one-issue third-parties and electoral impotence. None of those options is particularly attractive, and so it is likely that all three will be followed.
Again - if and when the evangelicals would collectively bolt into a third party, then yes, that would destroy the Republican Party. But that is unlikely to happen, for exactly the reason you mention.

Instead, as you say, the evangelical vote would splinter, with only a minority bolting into the third party wilderness (if and when there will be a credible third party ticket for them), and a sizable group of them (and I'm guessing it will be very sizable) casting a nose peg vote for Giuliani anyway. That doesnt make for destroying-the-party stuff.

As long as the nominee can hold on to most of the potential switch constituencies you identify, the temporary weakening of the evangelical support may make for a narrowly lost election, but not for a full-on collapse of the party: the Republican coalition of interests overall survives, if weakened, and the evangelicals will just return in the next elections.

It's the opposite: if the candidate actually holds on to the evangelicals but loses all the three switch blocks you identify, that would make for the kind of destruction of the Republican Party's overall standing that you describe. And when it comes to the party's hold on those switch groups, I actually see Giuliani having better chances than, say, Fred Thompson. I mean, take the suburbanites, and consider who has a greater appeal to them: Giuliani or Fred? Giuliani or Huckabee?

The polls - again, just FWIW, and it's certainly true that people at this point know only a fraction of the kind of things that can be said about Rudy - have so far consistently shown Giuliani and McCain as the only candidates able to stand their own against the Democrats, while Thompson and Romney are far behind. Their standing reflects the doledrums of the Republican brand overall, while Rudy and McCain are, at this time at least, able to rise above them.
0 Replies
 
 

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