1
   

Libraries Outsourced: Librarians Under New Management

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 11:22 pm
oh, so, nevermind. (I suppose I have to explain re myself and comments, relax)
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 11:24 pm
Chumly:

Seems like you're a techno fashionista. Remember the 80's when microcomputers arrived on the scene. $1,000 for a microcomputer with a massive 1 K memory. In those days people only wrote simple basic programs. There was the tape drive too. It could hold 320k data storage and it was a lot. Then the disk drive arrived - 8" floppies to be exact and were sure better than the tape drive. Then came the 1-1/4" disk drive that held a massive 1.2 megabytes. Hard drives in those days were 50 megabytes. The hard drive capacities kept going higher and higher every year. CPM was first operating system then with IBM personal computer came DOS. Later, IBM came out with OS/2 and Microsoft with Windows. Apple first has the window system but was effective leader technology wise but its expensive and proprietary system sidelined as a minor player in the microcomputer market as it mostly attracted graphics oriented crowd. Then computer networking came with NT operating system and Windows 95. The Millennium version of Windows came and so on. One thing was certain there were system crashes. The CPU from Intel 88 was 4.77 MHz. Two or three years later came the 286. Next, 386 arrived with 32-bit system. 486 followed then Pentium, Pentium II, Pentium III and Pentium IV. High density storage came with CDs then DVDs. In the nearly thirty years we have seen massive changes. Every two three years there were new models almost like the ladies fashions. There is no stability in the computer industry. How long will the CDs be useable before they become obsolete when the computer industry no longer make CD drives. The 8" floppies are obsolete as is the monochrome monitor. CPM and DOS are gone.

There was talk of paperless society. There was even a trial that dispensed with paper by using computers. Jurors felt uneasy with the way evidence was handled by computer screen. Evidence could be manipulated just as the votes that were cast by computers in Ohio. Yes, paperless it was not as more paper was needed to print outputs. Changes were easy to make so each review had to be printed for checking.

What I am saying is that computer technology is not a reliable means of storing library information as obsolescence is far more accelerated than even the auto industry. Books are the proper medium for storage of knowledge and information. It is hard evidence and not easily corrupted and lasts for centuries.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 11:29 pm
don't worry osso, whatever your reason for loving concrete i'm sure there is some common ground there. i'm surrounded by it as we speak and it's fine, concrete (and technology, as i said) can be romantic too.

although so can a field full of grass, that's my point. i'm more at home in an urban setting, but i've gotten to the point where i worry about a future in which all nature has a sidewalk next to it, nothing personal of course. i wouldn't fight to have a world without sidewalks, either- in fact i use them frequently, just not as a rule any longer.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 02:30 am
talk72000 wrote:
Chumly:

Seems like you're a techno fashionista. Remember the 80's when microcomputers arrived on the scene. $1,000 for a microcomputer with a massive 1 K memory. In those days people only wrote simple basic programs. There was the tape drive too. It could hold 320k data storage and it was a lot. Then the disk drive arrived - 8" floppies to be exact and were sure better than the tape drive. Then came the 1-1/4" disk drive that held a massive 1.2 megabytes. Hard drives in those days were 50 megabytes. The hard drive capacities kept going higher and higher every year. CPM was first operating system then with IBM personal computer came DOS. Later, IBM came out with OS/2 and Microsoft with Windows. Apple first has the window system but was effective leader technology wise but its expensive and proprietary system sidelined as a minor player in the microcomputer market as it mostly attracted graphics oriented crowd. Then computer networking came with NT operating system and Windows 95. The Millennium version of Windows came and so on. One thing was certain there were system crashes. The CPU from Intel 88 was 4.77 MHz. Two or three years later came the 286. Next, 386 arrived with 32-bit system. 486 followed then Pentium, Pentium II, Pentium III and Pentium IV. High density storage came with CDs then DVDs. In the nearly thirty years we have seen massive changes. Every two three years there were new models almost like the ladies fashions. There is no stability in the computer industry. How long will the CDs be useable before they become obsolete when the computer industry no longer make CD drives. The 8" floppies are obsolete as is the monochrome monitor. CPM and DOS are gone.

There was talk of paperless society. There was even a trial that dispensed with paper by using computers. Jurors felt uneasy with the way evidence was handled by computer screen. Evidence could be manipulated just as the votes that were cast by computers in Ohio. Yes, paperless it was not as more paper was needed to print outputs. Changes were easy to make so each review had to be printed for checking.

What I am saying is that computer technology is not a reliable means of storing library information as obsolescence is far more accelerated than even the auto industry. Books are the proper medium for storage of knowledge and information. It is hard evidence and not easily corrupted and lasts for centuries.
Nope data is data and it's retrievable / duplicable / copyable / mirror-able / backed-up-able if the need is high enough to the extent that it can outlast the printed page. Even if file formats and storage media may be presently changing over time, you bringing this point up only shows you are driving using the rear view mirror.

Now, witness the fires of the library of Alexandria and the vastly changed / still changing Bible(s) if you want examples of the presumably immutable written word, not that your lifespan argument is anything but a specious viewpoint as to general storage efficacy perspectives. For example: recycled wank is still recycled wank regardless of the type of record keeping used.

For the record (digital in the case) I am neither pro nor con newer / older technology per se, however I am not a closet Luddite as some of the posters here appear to be to some degree, as I judge things on their own merits in the context of their present and future usefulness relative to the alternatives.

Your examples of optical media storage and earlier computers etc do nothing to support your argument that data can't be copied / retrieved / mirrored / backed-up / updated if the desire is sufficient versus paper and the ravages of Fahrenheit 451 (pun) and mold-decay, let alone the Golden Era of Pulp SF and their crumbling originals.

To some fair extent a goodly portion of your viewpoints center more around the fact that everything we do quickly turns to dust and we are but short lived mortals, than it points to any argument that the printed word is somehow superior to data on media.

Get over it! Everything is soon to be dustbin material, and paper is not going to be history's Saviour, the fact of the matter remains that future (and arguably present) data storage methodologies hold much more promise than paper.

Has this promise been yet realized? Perhaps history will tell us (that's humor).
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 04:07 am
ossobuco wrote:
You do live in isolation...
And again with feeling this time:

The classic irony in this here thread, is that dollars to donuts I am considerably more hands-on and more capable when it comes to using "primitive hand tools" and the traditional trades such as carpentry, plumbing, masonry, electrical than the other posters in this here thread.

Baseless claims of isolationism and techno fashionista indeed! Much more lilkey these types of assertions apply to the posters in question than they do to me.

In fact, I'll further bet dollars to donuts that none of the other posters in this here thread work with their whole body and work with hand tools to anywhere near the extent that I do.

I have been in the Construction Trades for 30 years as a Electrician, plus I play guitar and sing on weekends in the local venues for fun, fame, and fortune.

I am at present installing the wring for a food market in downtown and yep I get dirty and dusty and sweaty every day. Most of the work I must do by hand. Dollars to donuts I'll wager a goodly portion of the posters in this here thread would not last a week in that tough Construction Trades environ.

I suggest a number of the other posters on this here thread need to look at their own soft, high-tech, environmentally-controlled, indoor-cushiness before proposing that somehow I am an embracer of future-techno for and of its own sake and that somehow I am disconnected from the real world of physicality.

Chances are much greater that the other posters in this here thread are the ones most divorced from the real physical world.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 08:50 am
BBB
When you are 78, disabled, living with two dogs, transplanted to a city where I didn't know anyone after leaving all of my friends and family, your technology needs are different than young adventurist people. My needs are now simple. Things were not always that way. I am not a Luddite.

My first computer was a George Morrow with the CPM operating system. I went to Morrow club meetings to learn more operating information.
http://www.pc-history.org/cpm.htm

I used my computer skills to create an on-line art gallery "What is Art?", which was very different from most galleries. Unfortunately, it was lost when the site owner discontinued the parent site without notice. So sad as I loved that gallery as did so many people who visited it.

BBB
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 10:05 am
Have you searched for your site on Archive.Org.?

Many old images may still be found.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 10:09 am
When the power is out, books still work.

Not to mention how hard it is to train a puppy with yesterday's internet news. . .
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tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:04 pm
Quote:
however I am not a closet Luddite as some of the posters here appear to be to some degree, as I judge things on their own merits


you know what? if you actually read the posts, this is just a ridiculous thing to say. you don't have to be a "closet luddite" to appreciate the look and feel of a book, get real.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:16 pm
Re your living in isolation, Chumly, I was referring to sentences like this one -

"I forgot to add: If you want to try and argue that a library's reson d'etre is somehow based in part on a number of people's inability to manage smaller amounts of money or in their choosing a TV over a computer, or to learn the basics of PC operation, it would be entertaining, I guess."




Some people can't afford a tv or a computer. Libraries are there to help everybody get information.




Please don't assume all other posters have not been in touch with handsn hard work.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:24 pm
the first time i read something on a screen, it was a revelation. when i got an lcd screen, it was another. as lcd screens become better in quality, it's a new joy to read text- even long text- on a screen.

i do the majority of reading this way, "closet luddite" or not. but i notice something: when my eyes are tired, and i shut the computer down, and pick up an old piece of paper or a book, i have the same revelation, the idea that i'm looking at something new, amazing, and even refreshing. someday, when you cease to perceive time as linear and uni-directional, you may have this revelation as well.

i love technology. books are technology, too. and technology doesn't always move in the same direction- nor would it help as much if it did. technology is an expressive practice of ideas, upgrading everything is no different than burning books past their copyright date. it's pointless destruction, at great cost, sometimes for arbitrary reasons. destroy the paper book, and someone will invent it, down the road. why? because there are advantages to both paper and non-paper designs that outweigh the advantages of a homogenized digital fetish.

if awareness of that makes me a closet luddite, pass the stone tablets. though rare, there certainly are advantages of those as well- advantages that are easily spotted on most tombstones. and yes, i'm aware they have digital versions of those, as well. they are great for making your grave look more like an attraction at a zoo, but somehow i just don't think they do justice to the deceased. of course, anyone that prefers such a thing should be at liberty to select one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/elevator
http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/escalator.htm
http://digg.com/design/Brilliant_Storage_Idea_Staircase_Drawers
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:28 pm
ossobuco wrote:
Some people can't afford a tv or a computer. Libraries are there to help everybody get information.
That does not change the question of whether libraries have the relative efficacy to change these people's money managing skills, nor whether the few computers libraries make availalbe are in any way done on a cost effective and efficient basis relative to the alternatives.
ossobuco wrote:
Please don't assume all other posters have not been in touch with handsn hard work.
You present a Straw Man logical fallacy as I made no such assumption that "all other posters have not been in touch with handsn hard work" I made some bets that unsurprisingly no one who has already posted has taken me up on in the specific context as discussed.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:33 pm
Chumly wrote:
ossobuco wrote:
Some people can't afford a tv or a computer. Libraries are there to help everybody get information.
That does not change the question of whether libraries have the relive efficacy to change these people money managing skills.


for christ's sake... do you honestly believe that the poor exist primarily because of a lack in money management? even if they did, what does that have to do with the advantages of public-owned libraries?!
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:36 pm
tinygiraffe wrote:
you know what? if you actually read the posts.....
At least you are consistant in that you adhere to your Straw Man logical fallacies.
tinygiraffe wrote:
this is just a ridiculous thing to say. you don't have to be a "closet luddite" to appreciate the look and feel of a book, get real.
Again with the Straw Man logical fallacies.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:41 pm
oh thank you for that brilliant expose on my post and the numerous points i made, chumly.

i'll throw in an ad hom attack at no extra charge- when this becomes an intelligent conversation again, i'll come back. thanks anyway.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:46 pm
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
When you are 78, disabled, living with two dogs, transplanted to a city where I didn't know anyone after leaving all of my friends and family, your technology needs are different than young adventurist people. My needs are now simple. Things were not always that way. I am not a Luddite.

My first computer was a George Morrow with the CPM operating system. I went to Morrow club meetings to learn more operating information.
http://www.pc-history.org/cpm.htm

I used my computer skills to create an on-line art gallery "What is Art?", which was very different from most galleries. Unfortunately, it was lost when the site owner discontinued the parent site without notice. So sad as I loved that gallery as did so many people who visited it.

BBB
I truly sympathize with your situation, I'm 52 years old and able bodied, but have helped a number of family members with some of your concerns.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:48 pm
tinygiraffe wrote:
oh thank you for that brilliant expose on my post and the numerous points i made, chumly.

i'll throw in an ad hom attack at no extra charge- when this becomes an intelligent conversation again, i'll come back. thanks anyway.
I must go and gather up a bunch of music gear for a weekend endeavor.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:52 pm
tinygiraffe wrote:
for christ's sake... do you honestly believe that the poor exist primarily because of a lack in money management? even if they did, what does that have to do with the advantages of public-owned libraries?!
See my argument as to choosing a TV over a computer Mr. Straw Man and see my viewpoints as to the efficacy of libraries in this context versus other methodologies Mr. Straw Man.

I have to go as discussed above.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 04:35 pm
Hello talk72000,
Something that may be of interest to you and perhaps assuage your fears brought on by your perception of the transience of differing media formats.
Quote:
Online photo backup
As the world moves inevitably from optical disk storage formats like CD and DVD to USB-based storage and now, increasingly, to online storage options, OneCare is evolving to meet the changing needs of consumers. As a first step into the dark waters of online backup, OneCare 2.0 offers a single option: Online photo backup. Coincidentally, I've spent the past few months doing just this, and to date, I've backed up over 22 GB of photos--four and a half years worth--to Google's PicasaWeb service. And no wonder this is such a pressing concern: These are memories, stored in digital form, and losing them to a hard drive failure, fire, or other disaster would be hard to take. Offsite online backup is an excellent option and one that all users should consider.

In OneCare 2.0, online photo backup occurs through a new Live.com service called Windows Live OneCare Online Backup, so you'll need a Windows Live ID (formerly Passport account), which is typically tied to a Hotmail email address. You'll also need a registered and activated version of OneCare 2.0, which means that this feature won't be available to most beta testers. My understanding is that the initial, free backup space will be pretty limited--probably 1 GB--but that users will be able to pay for more space on a yearly basis, per other similar offerings.
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/wloc2_preview.asp
Quote:
REALLY cheap" means FREE or something less than $50/year. For years companies have come and gone offering online backup services at prices in this range.

If you search the Web today you will find a few people still offering to do online backups for really cheap prices, and sometimes free. If you had searched the web a year ago you'd have found more than today. Had you searched two years ago, you'd have found maybe twice as many as today. The internet is littered with the bones of companies who thought the public wanted dirt cheap, no support, online backups.

On the other hand, you will find online backup companies who have been in business offering great service at reasonable prices for years, with numbers increasing monthly.

You get what you pay for. Almost without exception, these ultra-cheap services have no local representation nor support. They advertise only over the Web, and offer scaled-down, no-frills services. 90% of them go out of business within a couple of years because they don't charge enough to stay in business AND because customers don't take them seriously. When they go out of business their customers' data are simply erased without recourse.

Our successful Service Providers know that this business is NOT price-sensitive. In fact, with customers more aware of the value of their data these days, cheap services are not at all attractive. They don't trust them. This business is sensitive instead to reliability - security - support - integrity. It's hard to get that in a cheap service that sells for $19.95 a year, and customers can see right through that.

The business is also sensitive to software features. Our software has for years led the industry in software design. We invented Remote Backup and continue to lead it with advanced features and security not available anywhere else, and especially not in any of the dirt cheap mass market services.

Most who use our software simply are not in competition with the cheap services. Those are for customers who don't care enough about their data to spend money to adequately protect it. Again, everyone knows you get what you pay for.

Now, if you plan to advertise your service only on the Web or by Email, and you don't plan to offer any kind of personal support to your customers, and you want to try to compete head to head with these cheap services on price alone, then you will need to lower your price (obviously) to their levels. NOBODY in the serious RBS community recommends that, however.

All these arguments notwithstanding, the fact is that almost none of our Service Providers are reporting that their customers try to compare them to any dirt cheap online service. It just doesn't come up.

We are simply not in competition with the dirt-cheap services. And if you DO find yourself in competition with one of them, remind your prospect that if he had been using Driveway or Freedrive or Atrieva or any of dozens of defunct dirt cheap services who's bleached bones litter the 'net today, their mangled data would now be bleaching along with them.
http://remote-backup.com/rbstech/TS100227.HTM
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 06:34 pm
{shrug} I worked for a split-off from the company that made Dragon Naturally Speaking and originally was named after good ole Kurzweil. And there are still the issues that I've enumerated with it.

I ain't arguing this any more. I've got other things to do and you're unlikely to be convinced.

PS My mother's hair was always too short for the bun, tinyg.
0 Replies
 
 

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