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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 08:57 pm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ORDNUNG !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's ORDER for y'all bereft of foreign cultures.

What the f@ck is goin' ON here???

Brevity is the soul of eloquence, as somebody said - though couldn't have been Schopenhauer <G>
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 09:36 pm
HofT wrote:
Brevity is the soul of eloquence, as somebody said - though couldn't have been Schopenhauer <G>


Nor was it any politician or diplomat. Mr. Green


Helen, you're irrepressible Laughing




timber
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 09:43 pm
variation on a theme: "brevity is the soul of lingerie" Dorothy Parker
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 10:17 pm
I don't know about you guys, but I enjoy reading Setanta's 12 easy step to history. My only reaction is, my god, this guys knows his stuff. I get some reminders tagging in my grey stuff as I read, so I know what he shares to have validity, but most of it is new to me, and very fascinating. One cannot but appreciate how he manages to put together so much history into less than a page of A2K. c.i.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 11:26 pm
The words of William Rivers Pitt, paraphrased here and linked at the end:

For the sake of argument, let's say that Saddam Hussein does indeed have chemical and biological weapons somewhere in Iraq (Leave off the nukes, as the IEIA has bluntly stated that no such program or weapon exists in Iraq). Hussein is and has always been a weapons junkie, and his jones was amply fed by science, training and materials given freely to him by the Reagan administration and a number of prominent American corporations.

One could argue that the best evidence Colin Powell could show the UN on Wednesday is a pile of shipping manifests from 1986, but that is not likely to happen. After all, the American names on those manifests would bear a striking resemblance to current door plaques along the halls of power in the White House and Defense Department. This could present an uncomfortable situation.

UNSCOM basically razed Hussein's weapons program to the ground from 1991 through 1998, taking care of pretty much everything the Gulf War bombs missed. The inspectors wrecked all the equipment and destroyed every missile, bomb and laboratory they could find. They were tantalizingly close to declaring Iraq fully disarmed when the wheels came off UNSCOM in 1998. In the intervening years, no evidence has been put forth demonstrating Iraq's procurement of new weapons development equipment and material, items that are watched very closely. Our satellite technology can read a watch ticking on an arm in downtown Baghdad, and is more than capable of noting whether or not Hussein's soldiers and scientists have been busy in the deserts outside Basra. No such documentation has ever been presented.

Forget all that. Accept the flawed but widely accepted premise that Saddam has these weapons. Let's take a walk down a path to the future.

Powell gives his spiel to the UN, which is so dazzling that a resolution for war is immediately granted. The tanks roll and the jets fly. The 'Shock and Awe' plan is put into effect - 800 cruise missiles are fired into downtown Baghdad, a city of five million people. Those are followed by a fusillade of 'smart bombs' which will be proven to be 100% accurate because all of them will hit Iraq.

Saddam doesn't quit. His army and security services don't turn on him. The people of Iraq do not rise up either, as they will be busy dying, hiding and mourning. Because we have absolutely no intelligence on the day to day location of Hussein, our rain of weaponry does not kill him. He hangs on, waving his middle finger into the cameras of the Al Jazeera network, which will film this alongside the shattered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. The necessity of sending in ground troops to finish the job becomes manifest, at which point America will be forced to absorb casualty figures not seen since Vietnam. In the worst case scenario, those troops get bogged down in Baghdad, at which point the newly minted rules for the release of tactical nuclear weapons come vividly into play.

There are two diverging nightmares arising from this entirely possible scenario, both of which arrive at your doorstep. If the worst comes to pass, and our forces use a nuclear weapon to seal the deal and release our troops from the bloodbath of street-to-street combat, it is absolutely certain that Pakistan or Iran, or both, or someone else entirely, will deliver a nuclear weapon into the hands of al Qaeda. When the mushroom cloud goes up in Iraq, all bets are off.

Perhaps more disturbing is the scenario that comes if everything goes completely according to plan. Iraq is a nation that is 97% Muslim, and the civilian casualties that will come from a picture-perfect execution of the American war plan will motivate a shadow army of terrorists who would, under normal conditions, welcome the death of the secular heretic Saddam. This war has nothing to do with dealing with that threat, but it will unleash the fury of that army upon us immediately. They will see the corpses of innocent Muslims, and they will come for us. Here. The front lines of this war will move to your neighborhood and mine.

That is the best-case scenario, and that is the rub. Whether or not nuclear weapons come into play, our incredibly agile and effective terrorist foes will attack us on the home front, should we kill Iraqi civilians.

***

This is not some mealy-mouthed appeaser argument. This is fundamental tactical analysis, and it says we are not ready for this war. During the entirety of the 20th century, we could feel relatively safe behind our oceans, because the wars always took place on someone else's ground. After September 11th, that changed, and we were not ready for it, and we are still not.

Bear this in mind when you realize that Saddam Hussein has been in office since 1979 and has never, not once, made an aggressive move against the United States. Bear this in mind when you understand that Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, two very viable foes who have actually attacked us, want nothing to do with Hussein because he is a secular dictator who has been crushing Islamic fundamentalism for thirty years. If we attack, those forces will move against us in the name of Iraq. They are, in fact, just waiting for us to move.

What is this war worth to you? Are you willing to have it come to your city, to your family? It will. Bank on it. The U.S. military may be all set to fight. We as a nation are not at all prepared to defend ourselves against it here at home. Bank on that, as well.

America, are you ready for this war?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 11:44 pm
PDid, Most Americans are incapable of following your kind of scenario. They have already bought GWBush's explanations as gospel. I am in the minority in more ways than one on this issue. I think some of what you say has much credibility, and I'll expand it to say that many Arabs in neutral countries are beginning to shift their opinions about American policy in the Middle East, and hate what our government is doing. More Muslims in the educated class have become more vocal about how the US is ignoring the Israel problem and the Palestinians, while ignoring the human rights violations of Israel. They do not see how Iraq can be a security threat to the US no matter what kind of weapons they may have nor not have. If Iraq attacks any of its neigbor, Saddam will be kaput! The international community will see to that. Saddam has little or no support from anybody. Why would he risk the retaliation of the world community? What can he gain? As Colonel Hackworth has stated, he sees no threat from Iraq. I concur. A US preemptive attack on Iraq will anger many, and we will pay the price. c.i.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 11:50 pm
Setanta,

A virtuoso performance. Condensing over a five hundred years history into so small a space. Magnificent. I'm afraid the brew has proven too rich for the custom. To appreciate it, one must already know it. Too bad we can't add water and stir until it is more potable.

Now after the review, dare I ask that you draw the most valuable lessons you see as relevant to our present situation? There are many, as must be in so long and complex a history, so which do you feel most important?

Ah, if there were only a few more of you -- and they came to conclusions more compatible with my own.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 11:57 pm
Come on, Asherman, Give it your best shot. I promise, I'll read every word. c.i.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 12:00 am
PDiddie wrote:
Saddam Hussein has been in office since 1979, and has never, not once, made an agressive move against the United States.


37 Americans would dispute that claim, had they not died September 27, 1987.

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/aa951fa0.png


USS Stark



timber
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 12:06 am
Cicero,

Give what my best shot? In these pages I've given you the best understanding and analysis I'm capable of given the information available to me. I've given you the scenario I think most likely to occur and the rational for it. I've given my take on the military capablilities of both sides, and the probable outcome. I've described what I think should be done in the wake of the coming conflict, and I think it likely that is the basic approach that will be taken by the victorious allies. What do you want from me? Blood?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 01:42 am
(here is water and refreshment for those who made it through Setanta's heroic post!!!)
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 02:47 am
Thanks Timber - I knew I could count on your support!

Dys - you want to discuss soles, wait for Fishin' to show up.

If anybody is left standing after this free-for-all - and no, Asherman, blood and guts are not required, this is an online forum for crissakes - could he please address the question of a THIRD FRONT.

Are we planning to fight 3 wars simultaneously?

(1) war on Al Qaeda terrorism, still not over (2) North Korean nukes + long-range-missiles endangering Japan (there's a definite Treaty of Alliance there, the "Security Pact") and now (3) Iraq.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 02:57 am
P.S. to Walter - yes to Schopenhauer's observation on noise, but he would have done well to read Goethe's observations on colors (admirably summarized in book by William James "On Perception") or any mathematical treatise on signal processing.

What matters is not the absolute noise level (filtering of residuals eliminates that problem) but the signal-to-noise ratio <G>
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 07:03 am
Thanks for the correction, timber.

I also took the liberty of forwarding your correction via e-mail to Mr. Pitt.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 07:10 am
Asherman, for me there are two lessons: Britain did best when applying, as best those on the scene were able, the highest principles of governance to which she as a nation aspired for herself; the second is more complex, in that it involves the plutocratic side of the ventures which resulted in the British empire. Capitalists are not only necessary, they are to be desired for what they can offer in terms of individual prosperity. But in view of the damage which can be done by even just a few venal capitalist, they should never be allowed to practice their black arts within civilized society without a reliably vigilant chaperone.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 07:30 am
HoT

Another signal post.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 08:03 am
Regarding 'fighting on three fronts'...Helen, you and some others here will understand far more clearly than the rest of us what might be going on re likely Pentagon planning presently. But, just off the top of my head, I'd guess it is an unhappy prospect.

You pointed yesterday to the Kitty Hawk about to steam south. I do not see much evidence this crowd feels bound by previous agreements if such appear impediments to the 'get Iraq done' project. Whatever the Pentagon thinks about the real relative dangers of Korea and Iraq, we won't hear about it if the conclusions don't match the PR program of the administration.

This has been an extraordinarily adept piece of mis-direction. The only mentions of Al Quaeda now are the suggestions of bosom-buddyhood with Sadaam. Korea...well...diplomats and containment and MY GOD look at what Sadaam has done to HIS OWN PEOPLE...etc.

Meanwhile, the job of the administration is made more difficult (and I really feel badly for them) by things like this:
Quote:
There are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qaeda network, according to an official British intelligence report seen by BBC News.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2727489.stm

Quote:
The Australian Senate has passed an historic no-confidence motion against the prime minister over his handling of the crisis in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2727551.stm
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 08:18 am
Setanta,

It appears we agree about the lessons to be drawn from the British experience.

Hot,

Cicero asked me to "Give it your best shot", but it wasn't clear what he wanted me to address. My post merely reflected the fact that I've already given my opinion and the rational for it on these matters many, many times.

If you are asking me to comment on your idea that we will soon be engaged on three fronts? Sigh, very well --

We, that is America, haven't chosen our enemies, nor their place and timing for challenging us. Al Queda represents a new means of conducting war in that it is hidden and diffuse, rather than open and clearly the instrument of a formal nation. As such there is no traditional "front". The front lines with massive, well armed and financed, terrorist organizations are everywhere and nowhere. Al Queda can, have been, and will be fought using a variety of means. Terrorist havens and visible structures can be directly attacked, as in Afghanistan. We can and are disrupting terrorist networks by using intelligence gathering and police-like tactics in localities around the world. We have been engaged in hardening the target to make attacks at least somewhat more difficult. Those who finance, support and provide safe haven to terrorist organizations must be "persuaded" to change their ways. Some require more tangible reasons to change their ways than others.

Iraq and North Korea are among those who understand only force. Iraq has to be dealt with forthwith for all of the reasons we've talked about here, and more besides. Iraq has not complied with UN Resolutions and fulfills its promises and obligations to divest itself of certain weapons and weapons programs. Iraq is a destabilizing element in a region already a boil, and whose resources are important to the world economy. Iraq is a sponsor of terrorist activity. It was necessary to "persuade" Iraq to change it's ways, and so the United States began to move it's military might into position where Iraq could see credible threat of military intervention. That did get some response from Saddam, but not nearly enough to justify a stand-down of our forces. Now the momentum of forces makes it virtually certain that allied forces will move onto Iraqi soil. Tough, but Saddam had his chance and chose to believe that we would back down at the last minute and leave him to continue the activities that make him so dangerous to world peace and stability.

North Korea is on the back burner at present, and the fire is turned low. If necessary, we can deal with the DPRK simultaneously with operations inside Iraq. Neither have military establishments that can withstand even the United States, much less some combination of other world states. The NCA has chosen to first try diplomacy with Kim, before applying a more direct threat of military action. Though I doubt that diplomacy will ever do much good with the DPRK, I can understand the strategy. Iraq will not take too long, and then if Kim hasn't gotten the message, the heat can be turned up in Korea.

Iraq and Korea are something like too pretty tough and cocky high school basketball teams who have bullied their way to some small victories. The United States military is the Lakers at the top of their game, augmented by some key players from other NBA teams. It is approaching game time, the stands are packed and some other cocky teams are in attendance to strategize their own chances against the All-stars. Probably at least one these bullies will step out on the court. What are their chances? My bets are on the United States and its allies, but then I'm not a gambler.

BTW, North Korea's existing missiles are mid-range, not long range/intercontinental. They can certainly reach many targets in the western Pacific, and may even be able to reach the northwest coast of the United States (most probably Alaska). For the DPRK to possess these delivery vehicles is dangerous, but it is intolerable for them to possess nuclear warheads. At present Kim can command two, perhaps three, nuclear bombs. These are probably kiloton in size, and relatively crude in manufacture. Korea has not tested its nuclear weapons, nor can we be certain that they have been able to match them to missiles capable of striking Okinawa. Okinawa and our local naval assets are the closest effective military targets outside of Korea. All others would be strategic in nature and intended to force primarily to frighten the United States into submission. For my assessment of North Korean military capabilities read some of my earlier posts to this thread.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 08:25 am
Setanta

Finally had time to read your essay "Compleat History of the World Excluding The Irish Problem" and, though my scroll-wheel required a replacement gasket at mile 976, I considered the journey a pleasure.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 08:37 am
Blatham - while I admire the literary and historical masterpieces online here, am often reminded of Talleyrand in a ministerial meeting during which a messenger delivered to him a multi-page letter from one of the parties in an extremely sensitive legal case sub judice at the time. Talleyrand instantly set it aside remarking "He's lying." The other ministers observed he couldn't know this without reading the letter, to which he replied: "If he were telling the truth, he wouldn't need so many pages."

Re logistical planning for 3 simultaneous wars: you saw the picture of the USS Stark posted by Timber earlier on this thread. Since you may be unfamiliar with an earlier tragedy, that of the USS Indianapolis, you may wish to look up what was done in response to that attack; while you're at it, see if you can find commensurate responses to the more recent attacks on the USS Liberty and the USS Cole.

Anon - thanks for book remark; pls call after the 15th as am leaving again tonight.

Asherman - thank you; you may wish to review range of North Korean missiles, their CEPs (circular error probable) and trade with enrichment technology in Pakistan.

Look forward to reading more of this fun thread <G>
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