The US, The UN and Iraq

Snood, I am among a number of combat veterans participating on this thread. I'll leave to the others to identify themselves if they care to. And as for Tres's lilting, non-judgemental prose, well, I acknowledge you both for your exceptional achievements in that category. Its obvious the two of you exercize tremendous restraint. Obviously, either of you could be much, much worse than either of you are. I find that encouraging.


timber

I'm absolutely outraged that we in Britain should be sending our servicemen and women on this hare-brained scheme to satisfy G W Bush's lust for revenge over President Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

Blair has said there is nothing more dangerous than spreading dissent and division between America and Europe. But events over the last few days have convinced me that the so called 'Special Relationship' never really existed except at diplomatic cocktail parties, and that attempts to revive it or cement it are actually working AGAINST our national interest. I can't say how disappointed I am that for all the good work Blair has done and the respect he has gained for Britain and the Labour Party, on this issue I find myself in complete opposition.

Blair is sincere and brave. He is willing to face up to sacrificing our servicemen and women. He is willing to face up to terminating his political career if needs be over this issue. He is prepared to see the EU split, the Labour party split, NATO irrelevant and Europe and America in a stand off of mutual contempt. If that's what happens "so be it".

He is gambling everything on a quick and relatively "painless" victory, but at what cost in the long term? And why? Its completely unnecessary. Blair has made himself a bridge between the US and Europe. Now the bridge is on fire from both ends and neither "Old" Europe nor "Bushite" America actually cares.

I have found no one able to explain why Blair is willing to risk absolutely everything for absolutely nothing.

"Lilting"? Well, in any case - point taken.

Roger

Re hippy-dippy weathermen, or in this case perhaps, burn 'em-learn 'em weathermen, I did understand the point. Let's phrase it as 'logistic ease trumps human life'.

And meanwhile, back at the ranch...
Guess what? There won't be a Palestinian State after all! http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,904670,00.html

Switching to camera three... guess what else?! It's better if you citizens don't actually know what occupation of Iraq might cost, because you might discuss it. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/28/politics/28COST.html

note to Snood...I'm gratified timber's point is taken.

I'm gratified you're gratified.

i'm just confused but thats my normal condition anyway.

Prickly Pear here - and I have been prickly of late.

Blatham
Sorry for the 'gratuitous imagery' snipe I threw out. Of course none of this HAS to happen. One of the reasons I am so pissed off.

And as to why I think death and injury would be less now, as opposed to months down the road, that was not a well thought through statement on my part. Gut instinct.

snood - Thanks for gettin' my back. :wink: You are right, I didn't call him a liar, I pointed out that he often shares information that is not true. Somehow, that makes me a bad guy. (Oh well...)

Tres

Well, you are a bad guy. I've verified this with my mother.

Sumac -- your "pricky pear" image is appreciated in more than one way! For the past couple of weeks I've been noticing tremendous slippage -- stumbling over words, silences -- among news readers, commentators, reporters on the radio. I've been experiencing the same slippage in concentration, as though there were job to be done but I can't figure how to get there to do it. On the peacemaker side of this issue, the "job" is to somehow persuade the warmakers to change their minds.

Of course this slippage is evidence of the stress many of us are feeling -- and I don't imagine it's any greater on one side of the political divide than the other. On the surface I've been a cheerful and reasonably competent fellow human being. Yesterday, working out at the gym, though, I caught my own image in the mirror -- furrowed brow, pale face, pink, worried eyes -- and the impact of what we're all going through hit me again.

Iraqi civilians, we were told by a stumbling reporter on the radio this morning, have reached a point of stasis: they are no longer terrified and frantic, "God's will" having been accepted. But of course my tension level goes up enormously at hearing this because plainly "God's will" has nothing to do with it. Instead we are witnessing the will of an arrogant, possibly psychotic, leadership for which all Americans (again, in spite of political allegiance) are responsible. Those thousands of missiles headed for Bagdhad are not being sent by "them," but by us. Each on of us. All equally responsible for the totality of the impending destruction.

That in fact may be the reason I've been arguing with those who express eagerness to get in there and get the job done. They may be expressing not immoral, detached blood-lust but desperation to get beyond all this and start the repairs. I'd be more respectful of that point of view if I were sure the "repairs" would exclude any American involvement in the future of Iraq other than aid and reparations, and if I believed that the very first repairs would take place at home with the removal from OUR leadership those who are plainly lusting for blood and power.

By the way, does any else believe "weather" is in large part a cover story for not wanting to push the political uncertainties of aggression and mop-up further into a presidential political campaign?

Tartarin

re your last sentence...I think we could perhaps predict who here would answer which way.

sumac

A gracious response. I watched you jump off the fence. I hope your position isn't marked by 'resoluteness', a quality which offers itself up as the cat's pajamas but which on closer inspection is often found to be the cat's colorful entrails.

I think perhaps you're right, Blatham!

I'm listening to the journalists' and talking-heads wrap-up on the week on the Diane Rehm show as I type. A panel of journalists joins Diane for review and analysis of the week's top national and international news stories. Eleanor Clift, Newsweek Steve Roberts, syndicated columnist Jerry Seib, Wall Street Journal


They're saying that the worst thing for the admin this week has been the spike in oil prices. Heretofore, the economy and Iraq haven't been linked in the American psyche. Now they are -- every time we fill our tanks. Therefore the low numbers given Bush for the economy will carry over into reducing support for the prospective war.

And Iraq will be a very difficult country, in the aftermath, to clean up. Internal revenge and score-settling will be rife, not to mention the Kurds and the Turks (now allowed to send in troops).

In the US, the aftermath will include a 400B deficit in the US. The admin is "low-balling" the situation both in terms of cost and numbers of troops. There is a conscious strategy to not come clean on the costs. "They don't want to give up anything in this path to war."

Iraq is a very, very rich country. The admin thinks if the war goes well, unwilling allies will want to chip in afterwards to get a piece of the action.

This IS about oil [they all agree]. And about redesigning the middle East. But you can't take oil out of the equation.

Consumer confidence has fallen to its lowest level in many years, partly as a result of the faulty security alerts.

Congress seems to believe this will be a short war. It will probably begin around the 15th. The US will probably get its UN resolution. How will this affect Blair? Tony Blair needs that second resolution -- he's in really deep. And much depends on it being a quick war. But many allies are angry at the arm-twisting and bribery.


Callers to the program:

Missouri: Wants to encourage the country to begin a real discussion about our foreign policy so we don't make this mistake again. Perhaps town hall meetings, rather than running away from political discussions out of discomfort. Panelists: Well, the country IS very much divided. There are legitimate differences. Congress took the forum away by ducking the issue, rubber-stamping. Congress should have provided the forum for debate, for finding a middle ground. Antiwar sentiment is building, contrary to what was expected, and the political divide is deepening.

Boca Raton: What would happen if Saddam decided to destroy all his weapons, totally disarm? What would we do? And we're buying twice the oil from Iraq during this period than we have before? Response: Saddam won't disarm... This administration won't, in any event, take "yes" for an answer. ... They want only a military solution and have been undermining the inspections from the beginning. Bottom line: Bush could not invade if Saddam disarmed but he could paint it as a success because he would have beaten Saddam down.

Cape Cod: North Korea is the crisis, not a matter which can be put off. Why wait? -- Because NK hasn't started reprocessing nuclear material nor have they tested a ballistic missile. That's the red line they haven't crossed... yet.

Missouri: Just returned from Africa and find that in this country has gone Orwellian -- repetition makes right! I don't hear a lot about the fact that most experts believe Iraq isn't a real threat and we may create enormous wrath in the region. --- This is true: there will be significant unintended and economic consequences.


Program ending: Governors, including Republican governors, are being forced to raise taxes and face societal consequences and are turning against the administration. Even Republicans are agreeing that the new tax cut bill is dead in Congress.

Everyone is correct.

This madness is driving us all crazy. Me included. And no resoluteness here, just deep conflict, anger, disgust, and a host of other negative emotional states.

I am about to experience another severe stress, and the anticipatory stress is at a high level.

The world is too much with me. I need for spring to come, and I can go outside to my gardens. Hope is eternal and is a necessary and welcome state of mind for anyone who has a need to create, nurture, give care. Destruction of life is the extreme opposite of who I am. My choice of avatar is not accidental.

Tartar, On the issue of oil prices. I heard this on the radio this morning; that we're now paying the "same" price today we paid in 1950. c.i.

Sumac -- I see you are in SC. Your response could have come from a friend who is in northern VA and who's at the end of the tether. Ice storms, few jobs, etc. etc. Okay, you're a couple of states away, but what's the day-to-day situation like in your area? Are we all experiencing economic terror, or is it just me? Etc. etc. Shall we all get together on an island in Mexico and zone out?

I heard that too, Cicerone, and I wondered (like Les McCann) "compared to what"? Need more data. I wasn't buying gas in 1950 and I don't know the mpg on cars in those days, so I just need more info on that... When I got my first car -- ta-da -- a 1955 Chevy Bel-Air Two-Tone Green Automatic -- ta-da -- in 1958, it seems to me we crossed the country for very little. Let me quote from my account book:

Natural Bridge, Va. - lemonade .10
Christiansburg, Va. - h. dog and cofffee .25
Marion, Va. - motel room 4.00
dinner 1.50
...and the first gas...
Linden, Tenn. - gas 5.00

There were two of us, contributing money to a "gas kitty" in the glove box. $10 each, each time. We filled up again at: Lamesa, Tex., Holbrook, Ariz., and the accounts stopped at Oxnard, Calif., with no further mention of gas money after Holbook.

Now, that's the kind of data I want!!

A little levity:

David Letterman: "France wants more evidence [of Iraqi violations].The last time France wanted more evidence, it rolled right through their country with a German flag."

c.i.