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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:37 pm
Sumac,

I recognize that this is off topic, but should be said, I think, in passing. I respect your feelings about testosterone and the effects the presence of this hormone in another has on you. But I would like to say, along with Tartarin (I think) that I don't feel afraid of testosterone motivated activities. And, while I may be in the minority, still, I think there are many women who agree with me.

I find this thread to be interesting and informative. And the strongly held differences of opinion heighten the need for logical thought. If this thread ended, I would have to do some of this work for myself. Thanks guys for your efforts.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:39 pm
sumac quote:
Quote:
To find myself willing to kill saddam with my bare hands


best to be done with a team, I volunteer!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:40 pm
Here's the link to the German magazine:
SPIEGEL: "Bushs Politik ist bar jeder Weisheit" - 'Bush's politic is bereft of any wisdom'
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:41 pm
Tartarin wrote:
To
So the current administration is fair game. I don't go in for smears, sexual innuendos, or attacks on a politician's personal life -- I go in for disagreement on policy, countering rhetoric, examining a leader's business and political past as well as his current policies; .......

Many, many people -- more than half in this country and millions more overseas -- find this administration's policies and actions to be a frightening and even criminal undertaking. We will stand up against this administration wherever we can.

And yes, I think militarism is in itself atrocious. Obviously, that doesn't mean I think individual soldiers are. Nor is a standing army which defends us and which is not linked to preemptive or aggressive ambitions under fire from me! ........

Like so many institutions which should be kept on a short leash, the military have become self-sustaining, top-heavy and bloated thanks to their close relationship with the defense industry. Worst, they often use words like "patriotism" to protect themselves while they have become, in fact, one of our most unpatriotic institutions, bleeding dollars away from education, infrastructure repair, healthcare, and indeed "homeland security." Again, that doesn't mean that all who have worked with them are stinkers. Obviously not. But in my view anyone who goes on to defend the military establishment is defending deep corruption.

Deep corruption is what I see in the Bush administration. But I don't personally set out to insult even those herein who defend either Bush or the generals. I think these supporters are wrong, ....... ignorance -- IS playing a big part in keeping the administration afloat.


All stuff right out of the Democrat platform and stock campaign rhetoric. I find no particular fault in that - merely note it to put the author's views in context.

Tartarin likes the Army but not "the Military". Given that over 90% of the cuts achieved in Clinton's 'reinventing government' (remember that?) program came from the Defense Department how can Tartarin say it is 'top heavy and bloated'? What is "deep corruption" besides a label for things Tartarin doesn't like?

Evidently Tartarin believes it is 'unpatriotic' to spend government money on anything but 'education, health care, infrastructure repair, or homeland security'. It is very difficult to make the case that government spending on education or healthcare has aided anyone. On the contrary it has corrupted institutions that once performed far better than they do now.

It is a fact that the statistical corelation between per capita spending on education and achievement as measured in standardized tests of capability in K thru 12 schools is negative !! That means more money indicates less performance. The money feeds only an ossified educational bureaucracy, self-serving unions and associations and a book publishing industry corrupted by and corrupting both. The Washington DC school district spends $7,200/year per student - one of the highest in the nation - and is at the bottom in terms of performance. The top four officials of its teachers union local are under Federal indictment for embezzeling millions in union funds for their own personal accounts, some while simultaneously serving in paid political positions of the local Democrat party.

By destroying the marketplace for health services through government funded (and controlled) programs, the government made rationiong inevitable. It is being done for them by insurance companies and HMOs. The government now proposes to impose yet another bureaucratic cure for the disease it created through a 'Patient's Bill of Rights ' law. The only beneficiaries of this are the bureaucrats themselves.

The fact is that our military has performed a good deal better than our K thru 12 school system.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:48 pm
Lola,

Quite right. I jumped to that conclusion. There is no logical connection between aggression and maleness. Did I just say that?

But about the fear reaction in women to testosterone - I stand behind that. Just like phernomes.

Respectfully.

sumac
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:51 pm
blatham wrote:


But if soldiers are the chaps most aware of the ugliness of war, then it's a startling oddity that it is mainly (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not) the folks here with military backgrounds who are supporting the push to war. You'd think it would be the other way around. So, why is that? A particularly acute and deep understanding of world history or social processes gained through basic training or in a military academy? A truer vision into the hearts of men, passed on my a mentoring corporal?


I'll buy that!

For once Blatham is right. (Though he certainly didn't mean it at face value.)
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:54 pm
walter, bill and others: i have found that quite often the european and even arab news sources will report on u.s. political events BEFORE they appear in american news reports............there is no censorship EVER, is there? noooo, just couldn't be....or perhaps just a little tiny bit? of course, it wouldn't be called censorship but common sense - and common sense is good, right!!! our ontario ex-premier mike harris always talked of COMMON SENSE and even common sense revolution when slashing welfare benefits, neglecting to protect the environment...... well, i guess he was in good company. hbg
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:04 pm
I read it because I search for the unwritten. Bush has been protected by the America media, actually coddled. But, we live in strange times and can only hope there is something left when this administration is through milking.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:09 pm
"folks with military background supporting the push to war" ? now, i'm sure there are - perhaps even the majority of folks with military background support a PUSH to war. but if i am not completely mistaken, there have been quite a few retired u.s. generals urging - at least - CAUTION..... retired nato-commander wesley clark comes to mind; when recently interviewed on cnn's point/counterpoint he certainly did not come across as a hawk. as a matter of fact he came across with a lot of reasons why a rush to war would not be prudent - he even managed to quiet down the "guy with the bowtie - what's his name?" who usually thinks theat arguments are best made and won by the one who shouts loudest. of course that does NOT meanthat saddam should be allowed to do as he pleases. but a PUSH or RUSH to war will likely not help in calming the middleeast.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:12 pm
hamburger, One slight correction. Your last sentence should read "calming the world." Wink c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:20 pm
Yes, it is big, much too big <sigh>
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:30 pm
George -- What you've posted is your remix of my words to which you add your interpretation. You set up a straw man and with a sissy punch, knock it down. It has nothing to do with what I wrote, nor the meaning of what I wrote. You haven't really addressed the issues, in my view -- just side-stepped them again. FYI -- "deep corruption" encompasses, for example, the swinging door between the Pentagon and consulting jobs with defense contractors and/or membership in the Boards of Directors. And that's just a start... An honorable military man, a hero and subsequently a two-term president, warned us against just this problem, predicted the advent of the Bush-style conglomerate and when he left the Presidency, a popular president still, did not move sideways into lucrative arrangements in defense. Instead, Eisenhower became president of a distinguished university. Jimmy Carter similarly avoided the trap and went on to his own distinguished public service career. If you start with Nixon and look at what these guys -- and their chief advisors, appointees, and staff did after leaving office -- you'll get the picture.

Gee whizzikers, Perception. Guess I'm just one of those women who hold the door for you when you're feelin' poorly, and who are able to punch you out when you're not -- but don't. I'm almost certainly older fashioned than you are but hey, I don't even recognize age in your posts.

Sumac: Funny about testosterone. It's so sexy when it's good and so dumb and dangerous when it's not. I didn't know about women being afraid of testosterone, though. We also have testosterone of course.... but whatever it is, it's still the hardest word to type, for some reason!!

Asherman: The guy Cicerone quoted was certainly not any more wrong to compare Bush to Hitler than anyone is to compare Bush to Lincoln. I thought he made some relevant points. It might help to say that though Bush has not yet made the Hitler League, he sure is working on it.... daily, hourly.
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ul
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:33 pm
For those who like to read and form their own opinion

http://electroniciraq.net/news/

http://www.tmtmetropolis.ru/stories/2002/09/20/120.html

http://www.scc.losrios.edu/~bodleyd/byrd.html
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:35 pm
Tartarin, Even with out the Hitler comparison, we are moving far too deep into a Fascists form of government!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:37 pm
Hamburger -- You're right. Notably the joint chiefs also expressed great misgivings, though I think they were to a large degree worried about strategy and spreading the military too thin. Would have to go back and reread their comments. Wesley Clark indeed came out and some tried to do to him what they've been doing to Scott Ritter -- erase credibility by smears.

The assessments of what happens "after," in the mideast are indeed grim. They usually start with the fragility of Pakistan (nuke owner), then the rush of refugees into Saudi, the economic problems in Egypt... There aren't enough hours in the day to listen to, watch, read all the expert opinions on "after".
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:40 pm
ul: Don't you mean to say, "For those who like to read the opinions of others and don't want to go to the trouble of thinking for oneself"?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:40 pm
Tartar, The trend is clear. GWBush has had only two years to reach this level of crisis, while Hitler had so many more. But, as you say, GWBush "....is working on it -- daily, hourly."
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:42 pm
Tartarin: Do you honestly want us to think that Scott Ritter was framed into propositioning a post pubescent young girl? His credibility's death is on his own hands, no one else's.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:42 pm
Sorry, just one more point before I go get a life. I fudged a bit when I responded to Sumac. What I really would like to say is that I'm about as enthusiastic about playing up gender differences as I am about ethnic or other inborn differences. That's because I don't find it useful to do so, but also because I don't think it's accurate. "Testosterone" too often means "brutish and stupid," and "estrogen" "ditsy, irrational and unreliable." Neither holds true in actuality -- they are caricatures.

Perhaps we're really talking about those who give the military a bad name.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 03:53 pm
I guess you do.

Thanks for the clarification!
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