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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:24 pm
Nearly. Or something like that, c.i.http://fool.exler.ru/sm/bud.gif
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:29 pm
Walter

If that is meant to be Bush ---why didn't you give him a "six-shooter' instead of a sword?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:33 pm
Walter, Did you have a Smiley Face which swiveled around, showing a peace sign on the back, in one of your posts? Or am I....? Others here would like to see it but I can't find it!!
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:35 pm
Stick with the sword Walter, don't want him shooting himself - the sword is wooden, right!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:39 pm
Six-shooters weren't invented at times of the crusades.
It's wooden, indeed.

eh, yes, there has been a peace-smiley posted by me ....
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:40 pm
Request to produce being forwarded (please): Smile
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:43 pm
http://www.millan.net/anims/giffar/peacesm.gif

Quote:
Gone
The requested resource
/anims/giffar/peacesm.gif
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:48 pm
Oy, oy, oy, oy.

You guys are too much. The after-odor of testosterone prevades, like a whiff in the wind. Wonder why women don't like these forums? Gimme a break.......

In case you never got it, that whiff, or whif, makes us feel fear....and we try to get away.

It may be a weakness of intellect, or soul, but I am not nearly as convinced of the correctness of my perception as you all seem to be. I am in deep conflict. In am sick in my soul. I am a gardener, a nurturer, a protector of life. To find myself willing to kill saddam with my bare hands, when I can't throw out a plant?

Too bad that I am able to live with inner contradictions.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 01:50 pm
Sumac -- There may be considerably less testosterone here than you thought. I mean that in two ways, the second of which is that I'm in the estrogen group.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:01 pm
Walter, Trying to defend yourself with wooden horses and wooden swords will get you nowhere fast, but I liked your smiley-peace symbol graphic which is the preferred one. Wink c.i.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:02 pm
These comparisons of Bush to Hitler made in a letter to the editor of the San Jose Mercury News are an odious example of the sort of exaggeration we've objected to in recent posts.

Quote:
Hitler registered Jews and synagogues, Bush registered Muslims and has the FBI counting and identifying mosques.


What evidence is there that American citizens are being required to register on the basis of their religion? Is the FBI trying to identify those places within our country that may provide cover and support to terrorists? I sure hope so. Terrorists hide among the innocent, which increases the difficulty in identifying them. All of the terrorists actively at war with the West and the United States are young men of middle-eastern extraction who claim to be acting as part of an extremist Islamic Jihad against the West. Where else would we look for the terrorists who plan to murder our citizens?

Quote:
HItler held secret tribunals. Bush held secret and military tribunals.


Lincoln also tried citizens in secret military tribunals and even executed some. That doesn't make Lincoln comparable to Hitler either. Those who are currently in American custody are mostly enemy aliens, and their confinement is hardly secret. Can you cite anyone who has been actually tried and convicted secretly?

Quote:
Hitler passed the Engabling Bill for the safety of the Germans by "temporarily" suspending civil liberties. Bush passed the Patriot Act to secure the safety of the American people, which limits civil liberties. Hitler deprived the Jews of their citizenship. The leaked Patriot Act II would allow the Bush administration to revoke citizenship.


The Patriot Act passed by Congress in the wake of 9/11 does not suspend any civil liberties for American citizens. It does make it somewhat easier for law enforcement to protect the country from those in our country illegally. Nothing in the Patriot Act has been challenged as unconstitutional. So far as we can tell there has been no abuses of the Act. The Bill of Rights remains intact, and no suppression or repression of American liberties has been noted. Can you supply any evidence to the contrary? Which American ethnic group has been deprived of their citizenship?

There is no Patriot Act II. There is only a draft of a possible amendment to the Patriot Act that was circulated to Congressional leaders for comment and input that was leaked to the press. Nothing has been proposed, and any additional legislation is in the distant future. Whatever comes before the Congress may be very different from the draft material, and the Congress itself will alter the legislation until it may have no resemblance to what the Executive branch might actually propose. This is a boogieman that is meaningless in its present form.

Quote:
Hitler deprived the Jews of their basic human rights without due process. Bush deprived accused American citizens of their basic human rights, detaining them without due process.


Hitler's Nuremberg Law and policies adopted at the Wanasee Conference resulted in the murder of millions of people in murder camps. I'd like to have you demonstrate how anything in this administration's handling of the terrorist threat is comparable to Hitler. Has anyone in the United States been deprived of "basic human rights" with, or without due process? What human rights have been taken away?

Quote:
HItler set up isolated concentration camps for political opponents. Bush sent illigal combatants and terrorists to isolated military prison camps.


Hitler's camps had one purpose, murder. In those camps torture and starvation of civilians imprisoned for no other reason than their ethnic, religious, political, or sexual orientation was not only acceptable, it was a matter of policy. Those imprisoned in Cuba are not tortured, starved, or murdered. They are dangerous terrorists captured trying to kill Americans. They are leaders in a stateless terrorism responsible for training; arming and planning terrorist attacks on the American people. They are not soldiers, but they aren't common criminals either. They claim to be stateless religious heroes whose crimes should be excused because they are fighting the godless on behalf of Allah. They cannot be regarded as prisoners of war; they cannot be imprisoned in regular American penal institutions. They cannot be released without endangering Americans and others around the world. Their status and what can/should be done with them is unclear.

Quote:
Hitler killed over 50 million people. Bush authorized the use of nuclear weapons on countries that refuse to give up weapons of mass destruction. This was a comparison of a powerful leader, HItler, and the most powerful leader, Bush.


Hitler murdered 50 million people, no argument with that though the number might be debated. There is no evidence that the Bush administration has yet murdered even one person, much less millions. There is no evidence this administration intends the murder of anyone at any future time. I doubt that anyone can cite evidence that "Bush has authorized the use of nuclear weapons on countries that refuse to give up weapons of mass destruction." The United States has never ruled out its use of nuclear weapons if the NCA regards their use as appropriate. That policy goes clear back to 1945, and is unchanged. Some planners have reportedly been examining the possible use of sub-kiloton munitions for the destruction of highly hazardous materials buried deep underground. Though the use of very low yield subsurface nuclear weapons may be optimal, I doubt that anyone will ever seriously advocate their use for political reasons. Use of nuclear weapons of that sort, and for those purposes, would not kill or harm anyone, but would be a public relations nightmare.

These remarks are inflamatory and unsupported by fact. Why post such nonsense?
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:05 pm
Asherman wrote:
What evidence is there that American citizens are being required to register on the basis of their religion?

There is none, of course, but that won't stop people from making and mindlessly parroting the claim.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:13 pm
Tartarin wrote:

"the second of which is that I'm in the estrogen group".

Gee whizz----do you mean we should have been holding the door for you instead of trying to punch you out? I'm old fashioned. BTW none of us missed the reference to the other reason. Hmmm---maybe you should have been a comedy writer.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:16 pm
Just a repost of BillW's link, just in case somebody missed it.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-2-2003_pg3_3

c.i.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:17 pm
Asherman, Because this is a free country? c.i.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:23 pm
Tartarin,

ROTFLMAO. Thanks for the comedic relief. Can take this thread in small doses only.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:23 pm
Quote:
Just a repost of BillW's link, just in case somebody missed it.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-2-2003_pg3_3

Thanks. I had.

Hmmm. Okay, I think the representation made in the letter cited by ci a ways back left out some key points, but I'm willing to acknowledge that this seems to qualify as "Muslims being registered". Fair enough. Thanks BillW for providing the link and CI for helping me to stop overlooking it.

Now, I hope I've offered the appropriate niceties to allow me to comment further without drawing too much nasty friendly fire...

I think it is important to note that we are talking about registering IMMIGRANTS, not citizens. I think it is also important to note that the plan is to register all immigrants (why were we not already doing so?). That there is a greater need right now to know the whereabouts of immigrants who are male and from Arab nations is a fact of life, though I understand that it would raise some hackles, and definitely want to see the INS follow through with registering others in a timely fashion.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:32 pm
anyone interested in seeing an alternate view of u.s. government policy should read senator byrd's senate remarks. they can be found at www.senate.gov/~byrd/ , go to NEWSROOM and read his address of february 13, 2003 - i found it interesting that the german newsmagazine DER SPIEGEL carried his address, but i could not find much reference to it on any american newsreports. certainly, senator byrd cannot be accused of not being a true american patriot. i just hope his message is heard LOUD AND CLEAR in the white house.......is there any hope? anyone care to read and comment on senator byrd's address? hbg
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:35 pm
hamburger

Thanks for mentioning this.

Actually, I've read that earlier today, and since I couldn't find -like you- any references in US-papers, I didn't metion this.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Feb, 2003 02:36 pm
Good pint hamburger, I have read them in the past, maybe I should refresh myself - yes!
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