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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 01:08 am
tres, You seem to take joy in the fact that the age group under 15 doesn't meet the 50 percentile. Since you have such low regard for Iraqi children that represents over 9.5 million, and the potential death for many of them, I no longer wish to discuss this issue or any other issue with you. The fact that they represent over 40 percent but not 50 percent is lost on you. Your sense of inhumanity towards children leaves me with no more arguments that I wish to exchange with you. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 01:28 am
c.i.

IMHO, war per se is inhuman.


----------------


Quote:
"In the last few weeks, however, administration officials have concluded that a resolution with a weak majority would still have authority.

The United States has often been on the other side of an uneven vote, and has exercised its veto." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/21/international/middleeast/21IRAQ.html?



.....what a difference a 'NO' makes .....
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 01:38 am
Quote:
You seem to take joy in the fact that the age group under 15 doesn't meet the 50 percentile. Since you have such low regard for Iraqi children that represents over 9.5 million, and the potential death for many of them, I no longer wish to discuss this issue or any other issue with you. The fact that they represent over 40 percent but not 50 percent is lost on you. Your sense of inhumanity towards children leaves me with no more arguments that I wish to exchange with you.

Yeah, everyone who disagrees with you hates children.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 03:12 am
Found this definition of logic:

Quote:
LOGIC, n. The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding. The basic of logic is the syllogism, consisting of a major and a minor premise and a conclusion -- thus:

Major Premise: Sixty men can do a piece of work sixty times as quickly as one man.

Minor Premise: One man can dig a posthole in sixty seconds; therefore --

Conclusion: Sixty men can dig a posthole in one second.

This may be called the syllogism arithmetical, in which, by combining logic and mathematics, we obtain a double certainty and are twice blessed.



Forgot completely, why I posted it here and now :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 04:04 am
Quote:
From: "The Wrap": THREE WEEKS TO WAR?

War in Iraq seems to be creeping closer. The Mail makes the most
startling estimate: it splashes "21 days to war" across its front
page, and says George Bush and Tony Blair have "decided to go for the
kill by March 14 at the latest".

Elsewhere, there is less certainty about the exact date, but the signs
of conflict are everywhere. The Times reports that Hans Blix, the
UN's chief weapons inspector, is to set up to 40 questions for Saddam
Hussein "that could form the basis for an ultimatum", while the
Telegraph leads on Iraq breaking several of its promises to cooperate
with the inspectors.

The Independent picks up on what many see as the next stage - a
security council resolution authorising military force that Mr Blair
and Mr Bush agreed in a 30-minute telephone conversation would be
tabled next week. "Talkin' bout a resolution" is how the Mirror
headlines its report of their conversation, as part of its rather
musical take on today's talk of war (more of which later).

Tariq Ali in the Guardian describes a second resolution as the "soft
underbelly" of the anti-war movement. He disputes the notion that an
attack on Iraq would be acceptable with the sanction of the
international community - because the UN charter has often been
breached, its resolutions ignored and the security council turned
into a venue for trading a "share of the loot".

The Telegraph reprints a speech by Norman Mailer accusing Mr Bush of
being a "purveyor of false morality" and arguing that the president
needs a war because America needs an empire. Mikhail Gorbachev,
another big name in today's papers, tells the Times that the US needs
"a dose of perestroika" to move away from idea of "governing the
world by force".

A 37-year-old British father of two was shot dead yesterday in Saudi
Arabia. The Independent says there is no known motive for the
killing, but it has raised fears over the safety of westerners living
in the Middle East.

* Defiance on missiles could be trigger for war
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,899967,00.html
* Independent: Blair and Bush set to force UN vote over Iraq
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=380173
* Times: Bush and Blair will reap whirlwind, says Gorbachev
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-585258,00.html
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 06:05 am
Walter, thanks for the grand definition of Logic. Smile
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 06:14 am
And thanks, too, Walter,( I guess,)for the sad bad news scan about the gathering storm.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 07:14 am
Walter Hinteler said;

Walter Hinteler wrote:
c.i.

IMHO, war per se is inhuman.



A nice sentiment, but human history is replete with wars - in every continent and in every century. There was hardly a moment in the 20th century in which there wasn't a war, of some kind, going on somewhere in the world. And there were two sides to each of these conflicts.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 07:47 am
As Walter said: War, per se, is inhuman. It goes against mankind's instinct to create and procreate. Man seems also to have an instinct for war. This can be logically explained by Walter's definition of logic above.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 08:22 am
PBS Frontline documentary available on line in text, or if you are on something quicker than dial up, you can view it...and everyone here should.
Quote:
As the U.S. stands at the brink of possible war with Iraq, many are now warning about the potential consequences: the danger of getting bogged down in Baghdad, the prospect of longtime allies leaving America's side, the possibility of chaos in the Middle East, the threat of renewed terrorism.

But the Bush administration insiders who helped define the "Bush Doctrine," and who have argued most forcefully for war, are determined to set a course that will remake America's role in the world. Having served three Republican presidents over the course of two decades, this group of close advisers -- among them Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and perhaps most importantly, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz -- believe that the removal of Saddam Hussein is the necessary first act of a new era.

In "The War Behind Closed Doors," FRONTLINE traces the inside story of how that group of advisers -- calling themselves "neo-Reaganites," "neo-conservatives," or simply "hawks" -- set out to achieve the most dramatic change in American foreign policy in half a century: a grand strategy, formally articulated in the National Security Strategy released last September, that is based on preemption rather than containment and calls for the bold assertion of American power and influence around the world...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 08:25 am
from today's NY Times...Paul Krugman
Quote:
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 08:27 am
Louis Menand on Justice Oliver W Holmes understanding of the Civil War

"The lesson Holmes took from the war can be put in one sentence. It is that certitude leads to violence."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 08:38 am
george, in responding to Walter's "War is inhuman" said
Quote:
A nice sentiment, but human history is replete with wars - in every continent and in every century. There was hardly a moment in the 20th century in which there wasn't a war, of some kind, going on somewhere in the world. And there were two sides to each of these conflicts.
History (and the present) is also replete with rape, child molestation, and fraudulent muffler repairs.

That something IS allows no warrant for OUGHT (naturalist fallacy).

One might, of course, posit a benign supernatural event-caterer who's putting the whole show together - with exciting twists and surprises to keep us all guessing - thus facilitating a real whoop de doo ending.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 08:44 am
An American woman living in Egypt gave an interesting inteview this morning to an NPR reporter -- about the changes in attitudes that she's noticed overseas towards a once deeply-admired America. Her choice of words was so attention getting (she's a writer) that I thought I'd add them here, for your interest. The current administration (and by extension, the US) is "... undemocratic, thoughtless, and derisive."

As for the continuing possibility of war and George's comment, we have to remember that repeating history is considered "doom," not a clever move -- not at all!

As for the quibbles about the children, two comments: in the US "children" comprise the under-18 group and we should go by that standard (and so Cicerone may be entirely accurate); and putting up argument over precise numbers of Iraqi kids (or adults, for heaven's sake) one intends to put at risk indicates to me the isolated unreality and lack of humanity which has overcome so many Americans at this time. Somewhere, yesterday afternoon, I heard a local talk show host who seems to personify the privileged, crass "American consumer," over-influenced by TV. As though he were watching a movie whose action wasn't moving fast enough for his taste, he was saying things like: COME ON! BO-RING! What are they WAITING for! Let's go into Iraq NOW!, he said. What's the PROBLEM! Why WAIT! Everyone is getting so TIRED OF WAITING out here! Come ON! Let's ROLL! YEAH! (Go to commercial...) You can't tell me Karl Rove and Dick Cheney and others don't count on this in their fellow countrymen.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 09:05 am
Kill'em, kill'em all before someone finds out its a sham!!!!!1111
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 09:22 am
Tartarin

I know we share concerns regarding the modern media. This fellow's attitude is not merely a manifestation of a spoiled and isolated intellect, but also a grievously under-educated one. The networks will be, presently, pumping out promo to their major advertising clients urging them to reserve minutes for the huge ratings spike that will accompany the war.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 09:33 am
Kara wrote

"Walter said: War, per se, is inhuman. It goes against mankind's instinct to create and procreate. Man seems also to have an instinct for war. This can be logically explained by Walter's definition of logic above".

Further in the quote: "It goes against mankinds instinct to create and procreate"

I must strongly disaggree with this indictment against mankind and say this: It is mankind's basic instinct to create and procreate----it is human nature that creates the monsters that mankind must use logic and cunning to defeat. If there is anything instinctive about war it is the desire to rid oneself of a threat to survival
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 10:38 am
BillW wrote:

"Kill'em, kill'em all before someone finds out its a sham!!!!!1111"

When hysteria rules the brain----logic and reason are absent
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 10:50 am
Quote:


This is not the kind of "intelligence" that is likely to be handled cavalierly. Can anyone find some kind of independent verification of this? Or are we dealing with opinion?
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 10:54 am
I apologize for the really bad sentence construction. I didn't realize how truly lousy it was until I saw it up there, in print.
0 Replies
 
 

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