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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Tartarin
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 09:56 pm
Just couldn't manage it, couldja!!
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 09:58 pm
try is on for provocation resulting in US armed invasion: Grenada

"Reagan was most concerned by the presence of Cuban construction workers and military personnel building a 10,000-foot airstrip on Grenada. Though Bishop had claimed the purpose of the airstrip was to allow commercial jets to land, Reagan believed its purpose was to allow military transport planes loaded with arms from Cuba to be transferred to Central American insurgents."
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:03 pm
Tres

No, there is no need to apologize for this grace. On the other hand, there is equally no need for someone in deep poverty to feel shame or inferiority. We both nod to luck, and one nod is more happy than the other.

But this system has failings of some magnitude as well, and the matter of exporting it is not without its own perils. It is no simple matter to think through how the world will survive if the populations of China, India, Pakistan, Mexico etc all come to feel they should be consuming at the levels we do.

The idea of citizen government, established by citizen votes (a greek idea) is a fine idea to export.
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perception
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:06 pm
Tartarin

Don't look now but you just lost your pen knife!
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perception
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:13 pm
Tartar sauce

Hello out there ---did you get it-----"pen" "knife"??????
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perception
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:23 pm
Tartar sauce

That's OK---I don't hold a grudge----but I would suggest you file for a refund on that "education" you brag about in your Bio
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:25 pm
i guess the price isn't right;
"
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - With Washington warning that time is running short, the United States and Turkey failed again Wednesday to agree on a plan to let U.S. forces deploy for a northern front against Iraq. The standoff came as U.S. ships loaded with tanks and other armor awaited orders in the Mediterranean.

Secretary of State Colin Powell called Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul after a Turkish Cabinet meeting ended with no decision, and a top Turkish leader said there were no plans for parliament to take up the issue until at least next week.
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perception
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:31 pm
Turkey just replaced Iran on the hit list..................
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BillW
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 11:13 pm
Walter's smiley/peace face is about 40-50 responses ago.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 11:25 pm
dys, I think Turkey is asking for about 30 billion for use of their country for US army. c.i.
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blatham
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 12:19 am
Everyone MUST see this link...

http://www.nationalphilistine.com/baghdad/index2.html
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 12:24 am
Thanks for the link, blatham.

Perhaps, you'll like to read afterwards, why an Iranian thinks, an American attack on his country would bring disaster, not liberation:

Iraqis will not be pawns in Bush and Blair's war game
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 12:43 am
Here's a statement from the British Anglican and Roman Catholic bishops, which comes the day after British citizens were advised by the Foreign Office to leave Iraq immediately because of the stand-off with Saddam:

Archbishops doubt morality of Iraq war
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 01:48 am
Walter, I'm not sure why you aren't sleeping at this time in the morning, but thank you for the two links. The supporters of Bush and Blair will not understand a word of these two articles. It doesn't matter to them what the people of this world or the Iraqi people think. They are hell-bent on shedding some blood to prove they have the strongest military in the world. I have always maintained that the economic sanctions against Iraq only hurt the innocent people of Iraq, and not Saddam and his henchmen. For some reason, these so-called christians are unable to see the human suffering they have caused and continue to cause. I'm at a complete loss as to why everything done in the name of world security always seems to harm the innocents more than the leadership for both the aggressor nations and the victims. c.i.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 01:51 am
c.i.

It's now 8.51 am here :wink:
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 02:00 am
Oh! It's 12 midnight here in California. Wink c .i.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 02:00 am
Oh! It's 12 midnight here in California. Wink c .i.
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Kara
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 08:00 am
Tartarin, I used "was" about Kennan without thinking. I did not know for sure that he is alive still. And I found the rotating peace sign: it was in the body of a Walter text, not in the avatar space. I tried to copy it as a jpg file, but never managed it.

This is just arguendo, perception. What if, due to some divine interventional device (bit of irony here from an agnostic,) we were unable to strike at Iraq? Let's say we had been warned that we would all turn into pillars of salt as we tried to undo our trigger locks. If first-strike violence was not an option, what would we do? "For good men to do nothing" does not mean that they have only the option of war. It means that their voices must be heard, with increasing strength.

I try to read a good sampling of opinion pieces, national and international, that oppose my views in the current situation.

There is a Safire piece in today's NYTimes:

lhttp://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/20/opinion/20SAFI.html

Reading this article had me looking deep inside myself until, towards the end, he spoke to me directly:

"...This is the dirty dozen of doubt, the non-rallying cry of the half-hearted. The yes-butters never forthrightly oppose as principled pacifists do. Rather than challenge the ends, they demean the means...."

There I am, right at the end of the second sentence, saved from being a yes-butter.

Then I read this from the Letters page:

[quote]To the Editor:

Re "Antiwar Protests Fail to Sway Bush on Plans for Iraq" (front page, Feb. 19):

I don't believe that any American wants war, but certain facts need to be considered when contemplating action that will affect the world for a very long time.

Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait unprovoked to improve Iraq's economy and regional power after the Iran-Iraq war.

He set the Kuwaiti oil fields on fire when defeat became apparent.

He fired Scud missiles at the Israelis.

This man is a threat to the entire region, making him a threat to the entire world.

France and Russia have too much at stake economically with Iraq and will sabotage every effort to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

If this administration is swayed by antiwar protests and United Nations indifference, the world will suffer.

Imagine a world in which Saddam Hussein has nuclear capabilities. I would rather not.
JOSEPH W. PELLEGRINO Oakdale, N.Y. Feb. 19, 2003[/quote]

*****
And yet, I continue to stand firm in the face of a tornado of belief that military power is a legitimate means to an end.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 08:15 am
blatham, good link. Thanks.
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blatham
 
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Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 08:33 am
Mr. Safire is a fine writer, but as the author of the famous "nabobs of negativism" phrase to describe journalists speaking against the Nixon administration, it's not entirely clear whether he believes newspapers ought have a role more presumptuous than stenographer for those in power. That is, when they are Republican.

from the New York Observer...

Quote:
Does Old Europe Hate New America, Or Just The President?
by Will Hutton <mailto:[email protected]>
It wasn't only in London, Paris and Berlin that hundreds of thousands took to the streets on Saturday, Feb. 15, in protest against war in Iraq?-there were plenty of protesters on the streets of American cities. To characterize "old Europe" as peopled wholly by cheese-eating surrender monkeys and the U.S.A. by a warrior race uniformly and bravely behind military action is to traduce reality. As George W. Bush's ratings fall to new lows, the conservatives around him?-and the right-wing American commentariat?-might reflect that many of the attitudes they detest as "old Europe" are alive and well in America.
Europeans?-to the extent anyone on this continent of 370 million conforms to the generic stereotype?-are baffled and extraordinarily anxious at the rhetoric now emanating from the world's most powerful country. Mockery of President Bush's linguistic faux pas has given way to the realization that he and the people round him are very different from the American elites we've become used to. Europeans expect America to live up to the high standards it sets for itself?-and, at key moments over the last century, it has done so. Now there's a realization that Mr. Bush is not of the same ilk; he is potentially very dangerous both for America and the world.
These apprehensions may be mocked and derided by the American administration and its take-no-prisoners outriders, who dominate the American media and national conversation, but that does not mean that our fears are not genuine?-or well-founded. The majority on the European street is extremely wary about the doctrine of pre-emptive, unilateral intervention and the willingness to disregard international law and the U.N. process if it produces the "wrong" results; but that doesn't make us anti-American. Rather, we want America to be the better Europe that generations of European immigrants set out to make it, believing in the promise of a new continent with its Enlightenment Constitution and passionate commitment to opportunity, liberty and an equal chance.
America has been the victim of a horrendous crime, and the barbarians of radical Islam, we know, will again use terror against the U.S. (and against targets in Europe too, don't forget) if they can. They must be rooted out, and the deep causes of the crime addressed, even as we bring the particular terrorist networks to justice. But this complex task cannot be undertaken if we divide the world into the Manichean simplicities of George W. Bush: Those who are not for America must necessarily be against America. This is not good enough from the leader of the free world?-and it's certainly not good enough before the evil of the threat we face. We need sophistication, wisdom, the widest coalition possible, legitimacy?-and, of course, a willingness to use force if every other avenue has been closed. Instead, we hear the language of pre-emptive war (which was outlawed by the Versailles Treaty of 1919)?-and this from the greatest and most admired democratic republic in the world, a country that has always prided itself on its respect for law, at home and abroad. Europeans expect much, much more from America.
This, perhaps, is what Americans do not comprehend very well. Anti-Americanism in Europe does not play well, even in France, where it intrudes into the public discourse more than any other European country. Jacques Chirac is winning support because he's asserting an idea of an independent France, le hexegon, that occupies an autonomous role in the world and stands for a cluster of values (peace, multilateralism, interdependence)?-and taking on America at the same time. But when it comes to other core values?-democracy, the rule of law, respect for human rights, impartial justice?-no leading French politician or opinion leader (except those on the fringes of right and left) is going to position him- or herself as anti-American. And if this is true for France, it's even more true for the rest of the continent. German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder has sacked two ministers for making unguarded, off-the-record anti-American remarks; he could not survive politically protecting them in office. Indeed, Mr. Schröder, like Mr. Chirac, is careful to argue that while he's against pre-emptive action in Iraq until the U.N. process is exhausted?-and thus in opposition to Mr. Bush?-that does not mean he's anti-American. Nor, in a fundamental sense, is he.
This is what troubles and infuriates Europeans. Whereas Mr. Schröder sacks ministers for making offensive remarks, Mr. Bush indulges his own; Donald Rumsfeld or Paul Wolfowitz or Condoleezza Rice can say anything that comes into their heads?-some of it downright untrue and offensive?-and there's no penalty. This is, of course, the prerogative of the powerful throughout the ages, but Americans should not be surprised if their interlocutors bridle and chafe. The wonder is that there's not more resentment.
Some of the claims made by leading American conservative commentators against Europe (I'm thinking especially of Robert Kagan and Charles Krauthammer)?-statements that appear to reflect the views of conservative Washington?-are so vicious that if they were not obviously detached from reality, there would be some real anti-Americanism. For example, the idea that America now wears the badge of Mars (the willingness to use military force, to assert itself with manly vigor and bear loss of life like other great powers in the past)?-in contrast to the feminine loss of will in Europe?-strikes Europeans as an astonishing case of memory loss and saturation in fantasy. Is this the same country that has a collective fainting fit at the sight of one body bag? That has been careful to fight its recent wars from 50,000 feet up? Whose tourists have so little sense of fortitude that mass cancellations follow after even the slightest hint of danger? American swagger, Europeans suspect, is the swagger of the schoolyard bully, and no more sturdy. The scuttle of Mogadishu or fighting for Kosovo and Afghanistan from the air more nearly define American military ambition?-and if the going gets rough in Iraq, Europeans expect little sustained resolve or willingness to bear loss of life. Which is why it's so important that if action begins, it's launched from a platform of impeccable legitimacy?-why the weapons inspectors must continue and why the U.N. process must be exhausted before the Security Council authorizes war.
The French and British have both demonstrated willingness to bear loss in the national interest. It's that same tradition that makes both populations?-and other Europeans who know from experience war's senselessness and pain?-so very wary. Until the ascendancy of today's conservatives, America historically shared that caution: Vietnam produced the same embedded wariness, and for very good reason. That tradition, judging by the opinion polls and the growing anti-war protests, is not entirely dead?-and my hunch is that the Kagans, Krauthammers, Perles, Wolfowitzes, Cheneys and Rumsfelds will find that their own country will display many of the same sentiments as "old Europe" if they engage in this war against terror in the way they plan.
Which shouldn't be a surprise. The best of America is the best of Europe; the best of Europe is the best of America. The idea that these two pillars of the West can be fundamentally at loggerheads for long is nonsense. Rather, as I argue in my forthcoming book A Declaration of Interdependence, American conservatives have declared independence from the Western liberal tradition. Europeans are already protesting the consequences, but as that protest spreads to the U.S., the truth will emerge: It's not Europeans and liberal Americans who are the isolated, dangerous eccentrics who menace peace, order and the rule of international law. It's Mr. Bush's Washington.

http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage6.asp
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