Me? I'm still growing up. But I've seen a lot of history, including living in Holland as a child just after the war (II) and going to a local school with other little kids who a year or two before had been used as the underground's couriers, who'd seen death, who'd survived by eating tulip bulbs. Cannot, today, hear glib dismissals of the UN, of peaceniks, of the international community, without feeling disgust at the arrogance, strike that, ignorance.
Sumac -- I don't know how others feel, but I really appreciate reading original points of view here, including yours. Solutions do not arise from two sides, well practiced, lobbing the same old grenades at each other, after all. Someone has to step in and make sense...!
Walter -- Where did you get that rotating peace face?
Tartarin
Well said.
I couldn't agree more with you thoughts on the UN.
Tartarin, what rotating peace face? I want it, too... All I see on Walter's avatar is the EU flag.
There are some articulate speakers here in the past day or two. I am so happy to see appeasement discussed. This situation is totally different from Chamberlain and Churchill's time.
I got this from a friend today.
My friend sent me this one, too.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
And a last one for this evening...
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to
come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- Hermann Goerring
timber, Seems the Stratfor article died in the water. c.i.
Kara, the quotes are chilling and heartbreaking.
I was amazed that Bush could so easily dismiss the millions of protest marchers. He is like an amoral little boy who just loves to play war and has no concerns other than getting his own way.
Kara
I lifted this from the George Kennan piece.
"The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better."
George Kennan was 50 years ahead of his time
Quote:"We have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its' population."
You can tell an awful lot about a person by whether he or she assumes this means we're doing something wrong, or doing something right.
Those who think the former seem to think that wealth preexists human effort. That has not been my experience. Is it possible that we are the wealthiest nation because we have the most economic freedom and have the best economic systems working for us?
Nah... couldn't be that, right?
But, perception, he was fired for being too liberal...n'est-ce pas? LOL..
Tartarin, I concur with your impressions of Wolfowitz's comments today. I listened to the whole bit on NPR and noted his quiet and calmly controlled voice that made the whole interview sound credible. But the words did not go with the voice.
This was my favorite line from the Kennan quote: ...We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world benefaction..."
He was a real sweetheart, wasn't he?
Tartarin
"Perception -- If I yell over the fence at a nasty guy sitting in his backyard, insult him and threaten him but decide it's better not to jump the fence and assault him without cause, is that appeasement? Or is it good judgment?"
Your simplistic analogy won't fly---it lacks a relevant premise.
Kara
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke"
I love your quote from Edmund Burke but I can't help but wonder how you can be so against the action to remove Saddam if you believe in that quote.
although this comes from Voice of America (too liberal for some folks) it does indicate that its not just the french and germans that object, it seems to be the vast majority of the UN:
During a second day of debate at the United Nations, non-Security Council members had a chance to express their views on disarming Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. Some of the countries in Iraq's neighborhood warn that war with Iraq could inflame the entire region.
The majority of the non-Security Council members participating in the U.N. debate expressed their opposition to military force in favor of intensifying weapons inspections and increasing diplomatic pressure to disarm Iraq.
Nearly all the speakers from Arab countries called on Saddam Hussein to comply with inspectors. They also called on Israel to disarm its weapons of weapons of mass destruction.
Kara: The peace face has either disappeared, or I hallucinated, or likely it was in another post of Walter's in another thread. It was a yellow smiley face, large, in the text section (not avatar). It rotated showing the reverse of the face as a black peace sign on yellow. Nice! You nearly gave me a heart attack, referring to Kennan as "was." As far as I know, he still "is" in spite of advanced years (he was a close friend of my parents, a nice guy.) Kennan is the designer of the containment policy for the USSR, a policy which worked and which has been suggested for Iraq.
Diane: I have been consistently horrified at Bush's (non)reaction to citizen demonstrations and was thinking about it as I signed in just now. I wonder if Bush realizes that some of the people marching are parents of kids now in the Persian Gulf serving their COC, or about to go over there. The guy is walled off inside his own ego.
Couldn't figure an answer to the question, eh Perception? Easier to duck it, maybe. Forget about relevance: just try an answer. Double dare ya!
Tres
I don't know how deserving you and I are of any pats on the back for being fortunate enough to be born into this geography and this culture in this time.
Wealth is often preceded by labor, other times by theft or through dominance, and most commonly through fortunate birth. The real possession of it is no guarantee of just possession, Calvin notwithstanding. I doubt either you or I work harder than the average Afghan man or woman.
That would depend on if Edmund Burke would include our present leadership as "good men." Maybe some good men and women are doing something but it's not to everyone's understanding or approval.
blatham wrote:I doubt either you or I work harder than the average Afghan man or woman.
I agree, though I refuse to apologize for the grace of living under a system that allows me some freedom to profit from my labor and attempt to ensure the security and comfort of my old age and a good life for my children.
Neither, I must point out, am I among those that seem to think it is a terrible offense that some would like to export this system and those freedoms.
Tartarin
What's to figure out----you're a fool for yelling over the fence in the first place --- you were not provoked ---it's neither appeasement nor good judgement ---just plain stupid.
Saddam provoked this shirmish 12 years ago and has continued provoking ever since
