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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:04 pm
from the leftist Christian Scientist Monitor: Antiwar movement awakens over Iraq
By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

PARIS - European leaders convened an emergency summit on Iraq Monday evening, their divisions over the need for war thrown into stark relief by the unity of their electorates' hostility to the prospect.
The massive weekend antiwar demonstrations across the continent have clearly strengthened the hand of French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, who have led diplomatic efforts to forestall US war plans.
And marchers in London, estimated at between 750,000 and a million people, have complicated the outlook for British Prime Minister Tony Blair - Washington's firmest European ally - as he seeks to rally his European Union colleagues behind a threat of imminent force against Baghdad.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:09 pm
Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

I can offer another opinion though... my brother works for an international corporation that makes industrial gases. About 18 months ago he moved into their hydrogen fuel program. They are now ecstatic at the position the government is taking, as they believe this push for hydrogen vehicles will pan out and mean they will be building production facilities, storage, etc.. This is not a car company, nor is it a company that would waste money trying to make Bush look good. They are in the business of making money, and right now they are excited because they believe the investment Bush is making will mean that they will make money producing hydrogen, designing storage and dispensing solutions, etc..

But blatham's author disagrees, so they must be wrong. I should call my brother and tell him to have them close down their hydrogen program because you think it's smoke and mirrors.

I love the anti-conservative crowd. If a conservative does something you don't like, you attack him for doing the wrong thing. And if he does something you do like, you attack him for doing it for the wrong reason, for not doing enough, or you just claim he doesn't really mean to do the good thing.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:09 pm
from the Australian Paper The AGE:
Even though the Coalition retains a 51 to 49 per cent lead over the Opposition, Prime Minister John Howard's personal standing among voters has been eroded by his stance on Iraq, a new poll has found.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:14 pm
Tres: re fuel cell alternatives i agree that much research/development is absolutely needed and necessary, i have no idea what kind of technology will pan out in the long run but any efforts made today will help either directly or by process of elimination. i dont know if this is smoke and mirrors by Bush but i dont care either. information is information.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:21 pm
tres, Who even suggested that your brother's employer close down their hydrogen based research? You're not making any sense. Did anybody even mention that any alternative fuel research should be stopped? I don't think so. The only thing that article pointed out was that the GWBush initiative to fund 1.3 billion on hydrogen research will go to auto companies without any strings attached, so it doesn't need to be used for that purpose. Get it? c.i.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:23 pm
I think there's food for thought in Perception's suggestions about the UN, but wouldn't politics, as usual, play a strong role? Would a third-world country guilty of an atrocity be more likely to get a kick in the butt than a western nation? We might want to pick out a two or three cases of human rights abuses -- in a variety of countries -- and try to see how they might play out...

I agree with Blatham's comments and would take issue with, not only interventionism, but any measures which would reduce participation in the UN. We (the US) don't, for example, punish many countries with whom we have useful trade relations but who also have a bad human rights record because of the belief (which I largely agree with) that contact is more likely to change human rights standards than isolation. I lived in Spain during approximately the final 20 years of a fascist government and there is no question in my mind -- none at all -- that the opening up of Spain during those years to trade, tourism, and foreign residents helped the process of the almost uncanny, instant democratization of that country after Franco's death.

Foreign relations are always complex but one thing is simple -- the merest existence of a relationship is helpful in itself. Also (sound of a grinding axe -- sorry!), I just don't like the assumption that the problem lies with other countries and institutions. Some part of the problem may lie there, but we really only have the right to correct our own abuses, and it would be politically wise to shape ourselves up before trying to shape up the UN, Iraq, France or any other entity with whom we may be annoyed at any given time!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:41 pm
Tartar, You hit the nail on the head. We must rid discrimination in this country. Women still get paid 75 percent of men. That's flat wrong. We still have the hungry and homeless in this country. That's flat wrong - especially in light of our government's tendency to identify problems in other countries where they are willing to spend billions. c.i.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:43 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
tres, Who even suggested that your brother's employer close down their hydrogen based research? You're not making any sense. Did anybody even mention that any alternative fuel research should be stopped? I don't think so. The only thing that article pointed out was that the GWBush initiative to fund 1.3 billion on hydrogen research will go to auto companies without any strings attached, so it doesn't need to be used for that purpose. Get it? c.i.

ci - All I "get" is that you treat as fact any opinion that agrees with your position. I haven't looked at the budget myself, so I don't know what it reads, but until I can do some more research, I'll trust the opinion of my liberal, Bush-hating brother on this one over yours. He and those around him working in the field believe this means the technology is coming. (My brother actually hates that Bush has it "right" on this one (my brother's opinion as someone working at the edge of this technology.

And for the record, just because you don't "get" my reply, doesn't mean I didn't "get" yours. I got yours in spades. Someone else said or wrote something negative about Bush, so it HAS to be true. Rolling Eyes
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:51 pm
tres, If you find anything to challenge anything I post in any forum please do so. That shouldn't stop you from posting opposing views or facts. ci.
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blatham
 
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Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:52 pm
Perception

Note that I do think that goal the good one. And as I've said x times earlier, I think the US gets much more right than wrong. But we will fail to understand the full picture, and so make poorly informed choices, if we ignore the real negatives of US foreign policy actions past and present.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 06:54 pm
Tres -- There have been a number of credible responses (even in the mainstream press) about a) the length of time it will take to make hydrogen fuel cells viable, and b) their long-term suitability as energy sources. It's not that I know a damn thing about hydrogen fuel cell development, it's that I'm an environmentalist who keeps an eye on people who DO know something about long term energy solutions. So I assure you, there are scientists and "talking heads" out there who question the focus on hydrogen fuel cells. All that means politically is that Bush's enthusiasm (and our money!) may have been misplaced. I think it's a fair topic for discussion.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 07:05 pm
Tartar, I think I also read or heard some place that hydrogen fuel cells will require oil. I'll do a Google search to hunt for something to speak on that very subject. c.i.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 07:09 pm
Here's a link on "sewage turned into hydrogen fuel." http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/cars/sectindex.jsp?sub=Alternative%20fuels

It's a start - or is that the end(product)? LOL c.i.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 07:12 pm
Here's the article on oil and hydrogen fuel.

http://www.hexis.ch/map/SulzerDocuments/DocumentsImages/Documents/Hexis/News/Presseinformation_Sulzer_Aral_englisch.pdf

I may be able to find more. c.i.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 07:27 pm
Hydrogen fuel cells are one of the most promising paths toward weaning ourselves from fossil fuels. It will take time and some pretty hefty investment capital, but if successful Hydrogen fuel cells might help clean up the environment and provide a replacement for a steadily diminishing resource. I think the main problem will be in changing the distribution networks from petroleum to a fuel cell power source.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 08:31 pm
I still believe the most promising is the full electric car with batteries that recharge quickly on the run. The batteries would be recharging by a one cylinder diesel generator running continuously while the vehicle is in operation. This could easily give a 500 mile range and plugged into a 110 outlet at night for a full charge.

The diesel engine would burn one gallon per hour thus giving 60-70 miles per gallon of fuel. The acceleration could be very competitive with that of small japanese gas powered cars of today.

With a catalytic converter,polution could be reduced by 80% and with the engine adequately muffled and enclosed in a soundproof compartment it would be very quiet.

The addition of a small electric air conditioner would reduce the range somewhat but would be essential. It could also be 4 wheel drive very easily. A heater could be added to the cooling system for the diesel engine.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 08:58 pm
tres, There have been times that I have defended GWBush on A2K when I thought the charges against him were unfounded. Yes, DEFENDED. c.i.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 09:07 pm
Walter Hindler wrote --
[quote="Walter Hintelerb
I may not have the latest news about this, but media here report that Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Greece, Russia are in this line as well - governments, by the way, not people/voters.[/quote]

OK Belgium, Luxembourg, and Austria. Are you sure about Greece? Though they are generally happy to seize any opportunity to put a finger in our eyes, I'm not aware of any public statement on the matter by the Greek government. Russia is a long-term arms supplier to Iraq and is owed several billions by Iraq. Russia's strategic interests are to limit our power in the Gulf and she has long supported Iraq in such matters. I believe these are the considerations that dominate Putin's thinking in the matter. Otherwise he would enjoy the cover for his Chechnya operations.

Then there is the UK, Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, The Slovak Republic,Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Poland, The Baltic Countries, and Denmark.

Recognizing that these countries are at least formally democracies, we must assume the government's position reflects that of the people.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 09:42 pm
george, Just because the countries you've listed are presumed to be democracies, that doesn't mean that the leadership is following the wishes of their constituencies where it regards Iraq. c.i.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2003 10:44 pm
Delete
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