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Wal-Martization of the American mind?

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 09:39 pm
If you want my honest opinion, I think it is intellectual confusion. You are looking for utopia on earth, which does not exist. Capitalism is far from perfect, but is better than all the other ways to do business. And business is just business, for our temporal needs in this life, and should not be religion. You are ignoring the personal morality of people, which is the most important, and without it, everything else suffers.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 10:46 pm
funny that he's defending "capitalism" ("free market" sounds great because it's got "free" in it) as though we have that in america or the uk, when we've got something closer to neo-mercantilism instead, and anything but a free market.

but my favorite part is how the same people complaining about impending global leadership are the ones defending global enterprise like walmart, when such global corporations are the ones that have the money, the lobbyists, the campaign funds, and the real power- go figure.

and on that note rama, you are truly an enigma. i know english isn't your thing, but it's german anyway- go look it up.

i also truly enjoyed the part from okie about "you are ignoring the personal morality of people, which is the most important, and without it, everything else suffers" because obviously this is why capitalism "isn't perfect" (it's not capitalism's fault!) when "personal morality" is traditionally used as the reason communism (no country has that either) "can never work." what i take from that is, history doesn't repeat itself, the proper phrase must be: "history regurgitates itself." i certainly don't remember eating this...
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 07:22 am
Re: Okie
Ramafuchs wrote:
Without ifs and buts I respect your CONSERVATIVE views,
I hope you accept my happiness or unhappiness in this thread is justified.
I had quoted three different American sources and as a non-american i can avoid this kind of critical provocation.
Would you please take a stand about those three American authors who speak my language?


I put the words "non-american" in bold above, to highlight the context of my following comment:

Isn't it simple logic to think that if one wants to give credence to one's position, relating to a geo-political/economic entity, then one should let others know where one hails from?

This would let a reader understand the geo-political/economic possible context of one's position. It makes for an even playing field, so to speak. If there is reticence to give one's country, based on the belief that it opens one up to ad hominem comments, that is the risk one takes in the name of an even playing field.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 07:33 am
Re: Okie
Foofie wrote:
Isn't it simple logic to think that if one wants to give credence to one's position, relating to a geo-political/economic entity, then one should let others know where one hails from?


No.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 09:06 am
Capitalism is a fine thing which I support, but the Walmart issue is more than just free capitalism vs. socialism. Most of the products from walmart (forgive me if I repeat some things; haven't read through all the pages) come from China which as everybody is now aware has been cutting corners in order to keep their cost down to please walmart and other retailers which has resulted in recalls of unsafe products.

In so many ways the walmart and china issue is a self destructive relationship. We loose out on the manufactory part which cost jobs and we loose out by getting inferior products.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 09:39 am
But Wal Mart doesn't typically sell Wal Mart brand merchandise that they buy from China. They sell products from other suppliers and they don't care where those suppliers manufacture from. WM does insist on a good price for what they get so indirectly they are driving manufacturing to lower costs, but the decision to go to China or wherever is not driven by WM. So why are you pounding on that particular company?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 09:43 am
Re: Okie
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Isn't it simple logic to think that if one wants to give credence to one's position, relating to a geo-political/economic entity, then one should let others know where one hails from?


No.


I believe "No" is not a priori. Where one hails from can give credence to one's position. It might not, but it may. So, if one is reluctant to give that information it could make other posters wonder what the reason is for the reluctance. It makes me personally wonder if the poster, that doesn't wish to share his/her country's identity, might be living somewhere that frowns on the opinion posted (or even posting at all). That in itself takes away from some posted positions, when the U.S. (with freedom of speech) is the topic.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 09:51 am
Re: Okie
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Isn't it simple logic to think that if one wants to give credence to one's position, relating to a geo-political/economic entity, then one should let others know where one hails from?


No.


And using "Old Europe" as a moniker doesn't really tell anyone to who they are replying. What does "old" Europe imply. Is there a new Europe? Are any parts of Europe older than other parts of Europe? This moniker of "Old Europe," I find sort of Eurocentric, as though the world should know what "Old Europe" implies. It's like if I, as a U.S. citizen, referred to "The Bronx," as though everyone on the forum would know it's one of the five boroughs of NYC.

So, what does "Old Europe" mean?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 09:56 am
Re: Okie
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Isn't it simple logic to think that if one wants to give credence to one's position, relating to a geo-political/economic entity, then one should let others know where one hails from?


No.


I also have the personal feeling, that if everyone was forthcoming with one's country of citizenship, then what I'm afraid I might conclude is that certain forums have a degree of anti-American clannishness.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 10:02 am
revel wrote:
Capitalism is a fine thing which I support, but the Walmart issue is more than just free capitalism vs. socialism. Most of the products from walmart (forgive me if I repeat some things; haven't read through all the pages) come from China which as everybody is now aware has been cutting corners in order to keep their cost down to please walmart and other retailers which has resulted in recalls of unsafe products.

In so many ways the walmart and china issue is a self destructive relationship. We loose out on the manufactory part which cost jobs and we loose out by getting inferior products.

An important point to remember here is that inasmuch as China cuts corners, and Walmart becomes party to that scenario whereby unsafe products come into the market, people learn this, and Walmart's business will suffer, if not short term it will eventually be affected. We will see again that the free market works.

Another company oft mentioned here by the anti-business folks was Enron, and Enron is still mentioned as an icon of corrupt business. Well, where is Enron now, and some of the people involved? Proving again the system works.

In contrast, let us look at government, whereby millions if not billions disappear or are mis-spent on a continual basis, and it seems like nobody is ever made accountable for it. And if anyone wishes to point out the ruined retirements of Enron employees, look at the gross mismanagement and shell game / Ponzi scheme known as the Social Security system, involving not millions or billions, but trillions.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 10:05 am
okie wrote:
revel wrote:
Capitalism is a fine thing which I support, but the Walmart issue is more than just free capitalism vs. socialism. Most of the products from walmart (forgive me if I repeat some things; haven't read through all the pages) come from China which as everybody is now aware has been cutting corners in order to keep their cost down to please walmart and other retailers which has resulted in recalls of unsafe products.

In so many ways the walmart and china issue is a self destructive relationship. We loose out on the manufactory part which cost jobs and we loose out by getting inferior products.

An important point to remember here is that inasmuch as China cuts corners, and Walmart becomes party to that scenario whereby unsafe products come into the market, people learn this, and Walmart's business will suffer, if not short term it will eventually be affected. We will see again that the free market works.

Another company oft mentioned here by the anti-business folks was Enron, and Enron is still mentioned as an icon of corrupt business. Well, where is Enron now, and some of the people involved? Proving again the system works.

In contrast, let us look at government, whereby millions if not billions disappear or are mis-spent on a continual basis, and it seems like nobody is ever made accountable for it.
John Arnold, a former energy trader at Enron Corp. who now heads up the Centaurus Energy hedge fund, not only made his inaugural appearance on the 2007 Forbes' list of the 400 richest Americans, but at 33 is the youngest member of this year's exclusive club.

Arnold's net worth is $1.5 billion, putting him at 317th on the list, tied with several other Houston residents.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 11:17 am
dyslexia wrote:
Arnold's net worth is $1.5 billion, putting him at 317th on the list, tied with several other Houston residents.


I ain't quite there yet but I'm workin' hard on it.

*waves at everybody*
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 12:02 pm
Re: Okie
Foofie wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Isn't it simple logic to think that if one wants to give credence to one's position, relating to a geo-political/economic entity, then one should let others know where one hails from?


No.


I believe "No" is not a priori. Where one hails from can give credence to one's position. It might not, but it may.


Just because somebody comes from a specific country doesn't make him an expert on that country. If he states his opinion ex cathedra, merely based on the merit of posting from a specific geographic location, he won't get far in a discussion.


Foofie wrote:
So, if one is reluctant to give that information it could make other posters wonder what the reason is for the reluctance.


Really? Does the same thing go for a poster's ethnicity, sex, marital status, sexual preference, religion, etc..?


Foofie wrote:
It makes me personally wonder if the poster, that doesn't wish to share his/her country's identity, might be living somewhere that frowns on the opinion posted (or even posting at all).


You mean like Iran, or China maybe?


Foofie wrote:
That in itself takes away from some posted positions, when the U.S. (with freedom of speech) is the topic.


Ah? So somebody cannot talk about same-sex relationships unless he reveals his sexual preference? Or about racial problems without telling you about the colour of his skin?

Would that take away from his position, too?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 12:03 pm
Re: Okie
Foofie wrote:
And using "Old Europe" as a moniker doesn't really tell anyone to who they are replying. What does "old" Europe imply. Is there a new Europe? Are any parts of Europe older than other parts of Europe? This moniker of "Old Europe," I find sort of Eurocentric, as though the world should know what "Old Europe" implies. It's like if I, as a U.S. citizen, referred to "The Bronx," as though everyone on the forum would know it's one of the five boroughs of NYC.

So, what does "Old Europe" mean?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 12:06 pm
Re: Okie
Foofie wrote:
I also have the personal feeling, that if everyone was forthcoming with one's country of citizenship, then what I'm afraid I might conclude is that certain forums have a degree of anti-American clannishness.


If everybody stated their country of origin, you would feel that some forums had "a degree of anti-American clannishness?"

Why exactly would that be? Because you might discover that half of the people discussing American politics are not Americans?
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 12:23 pm
My country of Origin is India and I live in Germany and never polluted the soil of USA.
But I am very active to engage in discussion and thereby learn something from others.
Most of my posts here and in Abuzz is critical of American systems.
My critical views about USA and the system are vouchsafed with American views which maybe unpalatable for other Americans.
I had started this thread with a Question mark in title and that shows that I am curious to know your objective views about the views of American authors I had quoted..
Those authors speak my language and uphold my world views.
Here is one more American who calls spade a spade.

Continues
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 12:27 pm
Our fall from grace -- our separation from the mother -- our lifelong yearning for a return to completion -- our fundamental sublimating selves have never managed to rise above the predatory and venal. Societies and politics only reflect this. What have we become? We have not become other than what we always were, and that is the tragedy. The U.S. is now a template for the madness that promises to engulf the planet. A culture of cyborgs, of zombies, who compulsively and with growing intensity stagger toward mental paralysis. Is it an unconscious self loathing that is reflected in backing a Hillary Clinton? A George Bush? A John Kerry? I suspect so. Our society has less and less "time" for its populace to spend on idle activities or reflection. Longer hours and less pay, more stress and the need for more justification. "We" are the best, "We" are the richest, etc., etc., etc. At what point is such talk meaningless? (It long ago became demonstrably incorrect.) Ortega y Gasset once wrote how animals respond more directly to the exterior, that they respond to stimuli around them, and when the stimulation stops, they simply go to sleep. Man once slept better, as life was simpler. Today we live in a terminal state of anxiety and suffer near total insomnia. We seem unable to step back and look inward, even for a minute. In the U.S., as of 2003, one in eight lived beneath the poverty line. That's roughly double the numbers for Western Europe. The U.S. leads the world in per capita prison population and we have the highest murder rate. We also, as a nation, kill the most people in other countries. We do this in the name of progress and out of a nerve-bending white-hot brain-melting fear. We fear everything.

So, what have we become? We have become zombies. That is the best single image I can come up with. We are programmed by marketing and a religion of profit. Distraction from ourselves is such an acute need that without it we go berserk. The numbers of those "going postal" increases each day, and the cracks in the patina of sanity grow wider. The Western turn toward "reason" has become a principle of domination and control. The inequality all around us is simply not seen by most Americans. If someone points out that Cheney is living off blood money, hundreds of millions made off the suffering of others, most Americans respond by wishing THEY were Cheney -- NOT by asking for a stop to the suffering and exploitation.

Zombies.

http://www.swans.com/library/art11/johns09.html
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 03:04 pm
Ramafuchs, you make a critical error when you say "we," and if you judge America by what you see on the media, you also make another critical error in knowing what America is about.

There is a cultural war going on. However, I see it as a spiritual problem, not necessarily connected with what Walmart personafies. Much of what you speak of is brought about by technical advancement, in which evil forces express themselves in different forms than we were accustomed to prior to the modern technology we live with now. Long before modern communication and high tech manner of life, evil existed, as confirmed by archeologists when they find evidence of bashed skulls and cannibalism. Human nature is human nature, whether we live in caves or shop at Walmart.

What you witness on tv is America placing all of its dirty linen and spiritually bankrupt idols for the world to see, and yes, crime is rampant. I see it as a spiritual problem, not whether we shop at Walmart. The spiritual problem is causing people to live not as families, but as disconnected shreds of humanity, wherein children grow up aimless and fall into drug problems and a myriad of other problems. With that, we are seeing a disintegration of the trusted institutions that those of us in the older generation became accustomed.

The libs won't like it, but I think they are encouraging much of this that involves the tearing down and trashing of important traditions and moral decency that the culture once had. Nothing seems to be offlimits anymore. Instead of the three Rs, we teach moral equivalence and politically correct gobblydy gook in the schools. And we teach no black and white right or wrong, if it feels good, do it. We are beginning to reap what we have sown as a culture, but it doesn't have much to do with whether we shop at Walmart.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 03:14 pm
okie wrote:
The libs won't like it, but I think they are encouraging much of this that involves the tearing down and trashing of important traditions and moral decency that the culture once had.

http://www.ximtc.net/home/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/knot-hangmans-noose-black-backdrop-18mm-manila-1-ajhd.jpg
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2007 03:36 pm
Okie
"we teach no black and white right or wrong, if it feels good, do it. We are beginning to reap what we have sown as a culture, but it doesn't have much to do with whether we shop at Walmart."

It is not my intention to belittle the shoppers or the shop owners.
The authors who reflect my views are Americans.
As a Non-American I am unpopular not only here in this community forum but elsewhere as well.
I draw your kind attention to read the title of this thread with question mark.
If I had hurt your views I beg your pardon..
Thanks
0 Replies
 
 

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