Could use some help with a four year old's tantrums

From the update I got from my ex, DD continued her night-time games over the weekend, but got better when my ex really focused on talking about how it is just not okay.

Last night she was with me, after a rough start to the day. My ex decided she didn't like the time/place/whatever of our transition, so allowed DD to delay it for 25 minutes, helped DD become hysterical, and then sat in her car and cried while DD screamed for her for ten minutes. Truly, a lovely situation. So now we have added "appropriate transition behavior" to DD's list of things to learn. Nothing I can do about my ex (tempting though some things are), but I can for-darn-sure make clear to her what my expectations are for a good transition. I suspect my ex will follow my lead on it, since she's been good about taking on other areas where DD is acting out. And I'll need to remind my ex and her tears and upsets communicate themselves to DD very quickly.

Anyway, after that rough start, DD had a pretty good day. Took a very long afternoon nap, which didn't surprise me since she's been up a lot at night. She was quite good about lunch and supper, so got to watch some Disney Channel as a special treat. Then we went outside and looked at the stars for half an hour. She saw a couple of shooting stars (in the middle of the DC metro area; what a treat!) and it gave us some good cuddle time.

She went to bed fine, woke up at 2:30 to go to the bathroom and went right back to bed, and then woke at 4:40 and threw a fit. She lost her dollar for that, but it only took until 5:00 to get her back to bed even so. Steadily better, though still difficult. This morning she was still sound asleep when I went to wake her up.

Oh, and the transition this morning? Well rehearsed. DD did it exactly like we rehearsed it, and all went well. Of course, after a full 24 hours of "I don't like you and I want to be with Mommy," perhaps that's to be expected.

The answer to that remains, "The schedule says you're going to be with me now. You can make that easy or hard, but that's the way it's going to be."

She consistently picks the easy way -- which she knows means without yelling or tantrums. What I really need is a way for her to separate out truly missing Mommy from being unhappy with something in the moment.

Oh, and the best yet happened over the weekend when she and I were talking on the phone. At the very end of the call, she said to me, "Mama, I wished to God that God would give you to someone else."

Wow, that one actually got through and hurt. It's a good thing it was at the end of the call. It took me a good couple of hours to re-ground. I -am- this child's Mama no matter what. Even God can't change that -- and even if She could, she wouldn't, 'cause She knows I'm exactly what DD needs.

Two hours for that level of groundedness? I'm okay with that. It'll hold me for six months, I suspect. Later in the weekend, when DD wouldn't be polite on the phone, I told her that I'd called to speak to someone polite and that she could call back when someone polite was available. It took her three tries (and me ending the call each time she was rude), but she got there.

You know, there really is a shift somewhere right about at DD's age. A year ago, her emotional expressions were much "cleaner," rather than being full of the kinds of manipulation and power plays she's trying now. Maybe I just didn't see it then, but it really does seem to be different.

And a rather trying sort of different it is, too.

Croptart, I'm glad there's someone else in my boat, who can maybe benefit from my struggles! Keep us posted on how yours is doing.

Noddy, I can't correlate her tantrums to who she's been with or time of day. They seem to happen on some other schedule that has to do with overall stress levels, not stress specific to transitions. That said, transition stress is a contributing factor, so the calmer they can be, the better.

I am very late to this thread but would like to offer my home course on correcting childhood tantrums. PM me your credit card information and I'll send you my tape.

It's duct tape. Put it across the childs mouth and throw it in a closet.

Mmmmmhmmmm. Or we could just fry her up and serve her with chips*, if you think that would work out better.

*From Finding Nemo, if you don't have a kid of the correct age to have it memorized by now.

Maybe if the parents didn't pay so much attention and put so much focus on these tantrums and moods and other incidents, it would cease to be an issue for the little one. After all, she's being rewarded for them.

Back in the day, you swatted your kid, gave them a look, and ordered them into their bedroom until dinner. If it happened again, you got a babysitter and went out without her. Didn't happen much after that.

Today's parents analyze the bejesus out of everything. I refer to my social work daughter who worried that if she didn't feed baby on demand, baby would know its needs weren't being met. She's still not on a routine and my daughter is going out of her mind, whipping out her boob every 20 minutes.

Good grief.

It appears to me that one of the hardest things about being a grandparent is standing back and letting your children make their own mistakes while parenting the grandchildren.

I tried swatting my daughter when she was about 21 months old. The reaction was a dramatic increase in behavior problems that lasted for about three days. While it may be effective for some children, it doesn't work with mine. Besides which, my ex would haul me in front of a judge and/or child protective services so fast that my head would still be spinning in five years, which would be the next time I saw my kid.

ThyPeace, got swatted occasionally as a child, never saw the point of it -- it was always about Mom and Dad being angry. Knew that even then.

I've never had to spank my children, but have swatted them both a couple of times. Mainly, though, that look and tone were enough. And I'd like to add that I know I sound impatient with the new parenting styles... I don't mean to, but it is frustrating to watch and listen to all this psychobabble about it when it can really be just a simple thing. Of course, I didn't have temper tantrum kids, so take that into consideration.

My daughter overanalyzes everything and if I venture my opinion, I'm quickly shot down as being out of date - and I'm not even 50 yet! So, I say nothing, just hmmm...hmmm.... and wish her the best. It's a good thing she lives several provinces over!

I'm going out on a limb here and exposing myself with some possible old fashioned views. Feel free to attack.



Your daughter is in an unusual situation. How much of that she understands, I don't know, but if she's in preschool and other kids are talking about their mommy and daddy she probably knows she's "different." She may be reacting to that. She may not like it. She may be acting out with you, and to some degree bio Mom, in an effort to make you not want to share custody and thusly free her from being "different."

I'm having trouble with the forced arrangements for that reason. She didn't ask to take on the world and change our culture. You two Mommies may think it's okay and society has to start somewhere in accepting... But, DD was not given a choice to participate in that.

That said, even if it were a mommy/daddy shared custody, I think if the child is misbehaving this much, whether as an attempt to manipulate or for reasons she is not conscience of, someone needs to be listening.

Is there any chance of altering the arrangements for a short time to see if there is a difference? Since you do not want to drop out of her life, and I wouldn't suggest you do so, could you do a Friday night movie, take her home and then Saturday at the park, take her home? (Home being Mommy's house)

I know, everyone hates the Disney parent, but I'm thinking in terms of putting her on a more stable schedule AND taking the pressure off of everyone (mainly her and you) about all these rules, night time patterns, various rewards, etc. If she says she doesn't like you and wants to be with Mommy, is that not her telling you exactly what she wants? I don't know if she likes you or not. She may be saying that and misbehaving in order to get through to both of you that she really means it or that she really needs a "base." If you love her, can you not do that for her? Just as a temporary give it a try and see what happens?

You can tell her why (We both love you and want you to have an easier schedule) and how (I'll pick you up on Friday night and Saturday afternoon and we'll go do something fun. Just the two of us. Why don't you think of something fun for Friday and I'll plan Saturday.) For Saturday, you can plan to bake cookies together or plant some flowers, or visit a pet store or go to Dulles and watch the planes take off and land ... There are lots of fun free things to do.



She should never lose the dollar she has already earned.

As they say in Mexico: Matalo!

Seriously, when my stepson decided it was time to test his power over his mother and me he went into tantrums. In her wisdom (she was at the time a very talented special education teacher) my wife insisted that I not give into his hysterical demands no matter how crazy his tantrums made me feel. We didn't and he soon gave up the tactic completely. Man was I impressed by her wisdom.

Kill her?

I don't think it's THAT serious!!!

I'm also trained as a special ed teacher (specifically in Behavior Disorders) and I would also normally say not to give in to tantrums. I think this situation is different, possibly much more chaotic, and we're talking about a 4 year old. You can avoid giving in to the tantrums while still honoring her.

I also went through this with my step son. He often said he hated me, got physical, said I wasn't his Mom and I couldn't tell him what to do. When given the option, he ended up staying with us and apologizing. Sometimes ya have to call their bluff. Sometimes they just want to know they are being heard.

I'm suggesting she be heard.

I was kidding, of course, admittedly in very bad taste.

Something very similar happen to me. I entered my step-son's life when he was five years old and in much need, I guess, of his father who was divorced by my new wife.
My step-son ordered me to leave the house one day, insisting that I was not his father. He even attacked me, pounding on my chest with his fists--it was SO sad. I grabbed him and held him despite his violent efforts to free himself, saying to him that I will never leave him no matter what he says. He relaxed suddenly and from that time on accepted me. I think he was testing me, trying to make sure that I would not leave him as did his biological father. I became batman to his robin.

This will seem like a tangent, and useless at that since the article seems only available in abstract (right now) unless you subscribe to the New Yorker or have them available - but Jerome Groopman's article on colic and its discontents is quite interesting and somewhat converges on the question of tantrums. Alas, it's in last week's issue; I am always late in the reading relative to the date of the magazine.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/09/17/070917fa_fact_groopman

It has some questions re attachment parenting and its use re tantrums..

I'm not a parent, I haven't read Sears, et al, and I have an online pal whose child has done very well by Sears. I read articles like that and this parenting forum mostly to learn, even at my ripe age, though I can have useful observations once in a while because of my experience with my niece (her mother disappeared not once, but twice, for six months at a time, when she was a toddler, and that ain't all...).

I have wondering myself, ThyPeace, re what I see from this far away as a chaotic set up in your lives - at the same time I understand you've fought for your rights in this. I don't know what's best for the child. Maybe a child can get used to and be comfortable with two moms. I can't help but worry about what - again, from here - seems like childhood warfare. But there must be some literature on this - you aren't the first to run into this problem.

I can see that some kind of conversation and "contract" about all this should be worked out before conception - hah, as if that happens routinely in real life. I can emotionally see the birth mother's point of view about not wanting to divide ... what she did, from her view. I gather she is bi - of course not my business, none of this is. She now has a male mate, or did I get that confused? I can see your demands being some kind of giant strain on her. Not that she is correct, just that I can see that.

I can easily see the strain on you. We have.. strain city.



I don't know how you can ameliorate this. Hetero-divorcers have analogous problems, but don't have to deal so much with things like early classroom sociology, and usually not such a complex schedule.

On my niece - I had an interesting role. Almost always with her father around, in the early years - he was my husband's brother. I was not the one to discipline, since dad was there and he was pretty sharp re timeouts, and so on, but also since she rarely acted up with me. My role was as the person who listened to her, taught her to roll pizza dough at two and whatever months, yadda yadda.

I managed over what is now two decades never to do a real dump on her very dumpable mother, in part because (oh, never mind, long story), though, as she got older, I gave my niece some perspective on that. Her mother died a few years ago; I had gotten to be the one the mom called to talk (near incoherent rant at length, usually, in the beginning, and, off and on, I wouldn't answer her calls) so I may have been the last one to talk with her. (She told me later that I was the only 'family' that acknowledged her at the catastrophic custody 'trial', catastrophic from our view).

My niece and I are still close; I'm still the one she can talk straight to, and me to her - we're both adults now, me at 65 and she nearing 20. She sensed my marriage was going down the tubes when she was about ten and explained it all to me later, the little brat! I won't say I formed her persona. Let's say I had quite a hand in letting it happen.


I don't describe that as enticement for you to switch roles. I'm just saying that what seems like a non dominant role can be of primary importance.

edit of post before last, I meant two separated moms.

Lots to address here, and I only have a few minutes, so I'll take the most important item and leave the rest for later.

My ex and I had a detailed agreement for how to raise our daughter. That agreement was founded on the lifelong vows we had taken with each other. Unfortunately, my ex decided to break her vows to me, our agreement about our daughter, the agreement with our donor, and her promises to our daughter. Not much I can do about that. It is what it is.

When DD was six months old and my ex decided she didn't want me in our daughter's life, I spent quite a bit of time learning about attachment and what it means for young children. Basically, they come out of the womb already recognizing the people who are close to them. There is clear photographic evidence that that included me.

During the first six months of their lives, babies organize their physiological processes. They have very short memories and if a major figure disappears it (usually) doesn't destroy their psyches, particularly if there are other major figures available to keep things steady. I was in DD's life continuously during that time.

During the time from six to 18-24 months, the baby forms her first major attachments. The strength of the attachment depends on both quantity and quality of time together. During the first month of that time, DD and I didn't see each other much. For the rest of that time, DD was with me enough to form a primary parental bond with me (as well as with my ex, and yes, children can form more than one primary bond -- it has to do with the strength of the bond, rather than the number of them).

From then until the age of 5, children rely on those primary bonds to build their relationship with the rest of the world. If you break or significantly alter a primary bond during that time, there is a very high risk of significant trauma to the child. Not just the kind of grieving that an adult does, but true and lasting harm to the child's ability to interact with the rest of the world.

Given that, although I can see why someone might suggest becoming a "weekend" parent, I can't agree that it would be good for my daughter. Sure, it might be easier on me. Lots of things might be easier than being a parent.

But when my attorney and all the child development experts talked to me about it when DD was six months old, one thing they made very, very clear to me was that this was not a reversible decision. If I was going to form a primary parental bond with DD, then I had to remain a very significant part of her life for a very long time.

So, for now and for the next year or so, I don't plan to reduce or limit my time with her. After that, the situation changes some.

All that said, DD was an absolute angel yesterday. Cooperative, cheerful, helpful, all that a parent could ask for. Last night, she was up twice. First time she came in my room and I asked what she needed. She said she needed to go to the bathroom. So I said "Go ahead and go and then get back in bed. When you're in bed, I'll come give you a kiss." So she did, and I did, and we all went back to sleep. Total time, about a minute. Second time she wanted a hug AND a kiss, but otherwise, it was about the same. I think I was awake for two minutes that time.

This morning, she was also cheerful and helpful, though (as always) once she got hungry, her ability to regulate her emotions dropped a lot. She perked right back up after breakfast, though, just like she always does.

Oh, and when I said she lost her dollar, I suppose I mis-spoke. In order to earn a dollar, I have to see steady improvement and for her to wake up in her own bed. That didn't happen that night, which she knew at the time.

ThyPeace--

Good Times make it possible to endure the bad times.

I think what Swimpy was saying is that while the complicated physical custody question was necessary when DD was an infant that schedule may now make her feel as thought she's being shifted from pillar to post on a daily basis.

Have you talked about the situation with her pre-school teachers? Do they have any theories?



Are the frequent phone calls in the middle of her other mother's custodial time absolutely necessary? Does her other mother call when DD is with you?

DD says she wants everyone together. Perhaps she does, but she's going to get one-at-a-time parenting and the phone calls may be creating an illusion of One Happy Family for her.

She's four years old now, she's not going to forget you after two or three days, any more than she's going to forget your Ex.

Yes, there is research about kids of same sex parents. According to the research, it appears that children of two same-sex parents are (in general) no worse off, and in at least some cases better adjusted and do better in life than children of heterosexual parents. Of course, there are always opposing research studies in this kind of subject, but the preponderance looks that way to me.

There is also research about divorced parents, which generally indicates that kids do worse when they're raised by divorced parents. (Lots of controversy here, too.)

There are only case studies, and remarkably few of those, on same-sex parents who had a child or children and then split up. In all too many cases, the bio parent has the legal right to cut off all access to the social parent* and does so. That appears to create havoc with the children -- but the law is nonetheless slow to change.

For our own daughter, it's not something to get "used" to, any more than a child gets used to being a twin, or having a handicapped sibling, or growing up in a particular place and time. It's just their normal lives.

It's also certainly accurate that DD is currently going through a standard developmental phase where she is starting to categorize relationships. So there's not just Mommy and Mama, there is a generic category "moms." Similarly, there is a generic category "dads," and one difficulty has been for DD to understand that there is no one in that category for her. Particularly since my ex and her husband have taken advantage of the child-level confusion to shift him from [first name] to "Dad," over my objections.

DD's situation is certainly complex. More later!

That was what I was wondering - about there probably being studies regarding.

Well, we had another horrid battle on Sunday night, after all went smoothly Sunday during the day. On Monday afternoon I finally spoke to a psychologist whom I hope to work with. Her advice was to start using the methods in 1-2-3 Magic (Lynn Clark) during the day, which I'd already started to use. I -really- like its approach. It's simple enough for even a stressed-out, overtired, cranky, and at-wits-end parent (me!) to understand.

Interestingly, its methods do not work with sleep issues, though. Which would explain why it just made things worse at 4am.

For sleep issues, I am to back off for now. DD doesn't get to return to my bed, though. Instead, when she gets up in the middle of the night, I go with her back to her room, tuck her in, and then lie down on a mattress in her room. The explanation was thus:

There are a few separate developmental tasks associated with sleeping in your own room, all night, all by yourself. The first two are sleeping "in your own bed" and "all by yourself," and we are going to take them one at a time. So first she gets used to sleeping the whole night in her own bed with an absolute minimum of disturbance to her sleep. Then we get her used to sleeping there by herself. Presumably, after those two things are done, we do "all night."

I'm willing to try it if it will prevent tantrums of the level I saw on Sunday night. That's the first time I've swatted her during one of these tantrums. (She spat in my face, bit me, and kicked me. And that is no excuse for me finally coming down to her level.) I don't really ever want to do it again.

In the meantime, her respect levels, mood, and general willingness to act like a human being has shot up dramatically since I started using the 1-2-3 Magic methods. From what I read, I have to learn to be really consistent at creating consequences without extra talk or extra emotion on my part. I hope I can do that, because I really like the child who came to replace the alien I'd been dealing with.

Many people who have followed the psychology et al of childhood recently are all for co-sleeping. That whole thing is semi amazing to me, and I go so far as to say 'are they kidding' re a lot of older children. On the other hand, I gather it is not a new concept and some serious folk like it.

So, I'll be quiet. I don't know enough.

ThyPeace--



I wouldn't brag about the swat, but I wouldn't be consumed with guilt, either. DD deserves to know that loving adults have limits. After all, some day she'll be a loving adult--with limits.

One of the grim facts of parenting is that parenting is necessary all day, every day.