Could use some help with a four year old's tantrums

One thing I wanted to stress more above but I didn't -- this is something to do with the relationship between you and your daughter. It is about her ability to control you. It's about what she can do to get you to do her bidding, or maybe seeing how much you'll take. And she does it because she's so completely secure that you'll always love her.

And I could totally substitute "I" for "you" above, that's why I say it. Children behave worst for their parents, especially the parent they are closest to.

I've refrained from answering here in an effort to gather my thoughts and try to avoid being harsh. Unfortunately, I'm returning today with the same thoughts as my initial read through.

You're daughter is learning she can control you. You need to stop this immediately. I'm all for believing in your gut feelings / instincts, but I think your feeling that things had calmed by the time you got home and that it was okay to sit and read together may have been more of your desire to re-connect. You of course will have to be the judge of that since I wasn't there. Just from reading, that is what I got from it.

Mine never threw such tantrums, no doubt that was more of a blessing of their temperments than due to any parenting on my part, so believe me I'm not taking credit. On the rare ocassion that a minor tantrum (stomping feet and crying over a "no" at the grocery store) started, I firmly said that I was not going to tolerate that behavior and walked away leaving my daughter to writh and cry for a few seconds on the floor alone. As soon as an elderly lady came around the corner into that aisle and saw her (and me walking away) my daughter got up and came along quickly, embarrassed.

A couple of times either my son or daughter started to lose control - stomp, cry, whine, pound their fists and kick, a quick swat to the hind side brought them back to reality. Not a spanking, just a swat to get their attention since they couldn't hear me over their own noises. Then taking them by the forearms, squatting to their level so I was in their face, I sternly told them that was not acceptable behavior. They both responded to this, and I understand not all kids will. It was never followed with a need to re-connect, since we didn't get to a point of disconnect.

I adore my kids, and could hardly stand the discomfort of being at odds with them, so I understand your feelings. I think in this case it may actually be doing more harm for her. When she says she'd rather be with Daddy, you might say something like "I love you and I'm glad you are with me at this time. I know you are saying that to try to hurt my feelings, but it isn't working. I know you don't really mean it."

Take the sting out of it so she doesn't have that to manipulate you with while letting her know you love her either way. And, when I say manipulate, I don't think it's a conscience adult level manipulation. Kids learn what works to get them what they want, but I don't think at 4 she's thinking it through like an adult. She probably isn't aware of what she is doing at all.

I'll stop to think again.

Well, after a few days, I think it's time for an update. I really appreciate all the suggestions, thoughts, and good vibes.

While DD was with my ex (and I'm sorry -- I should have been clear from the beginning that there are two moms here, but was trying to focus on the kid stuff rather than the unusual adult stuff), DD acted just about exactly the same there as she had been with me. My ex was Not Pleased; she's no more interested in this kind of behavior than I am. DD had been with me for several days, so my ex hadn't really had a chance to see the whole thing.

But DD offered a full-on tantrum to my ex that very evening, and then proceeded to spend the night much like she had been at my house, up for more than two hours in the night trying to get someone, anyone, to listen to her demands for attention.

It didn't work there any better than it'd been working at my house, and my ex had the luxury of having two adults in the house to take turns dealing with her. Even so, apparently everyone ended up very upset at about 4am. What finally worked was when my ex said, "Look, sweetheart, I know you want to be able to sleep in the grownup beds and that it's really hard not to. But it's not an option. You get to choose whether it's easy or hard, but we're going to do it this way." And again, defenses melted and off to bed went very sleepy child.

When I picked her up from school yesterday, DD was pretty stable, though obviously tired. We were headed for a park and playdate with a friend of hers, so I wasn't too worried about major tantrums in dangerous locations. I kept a pretty firm structure in place for DD -- if you run away, you have to hold hands, you don't get to play first even if you want to, etc. It took her about five minutes of testing to believe me, but then she sat down and ate her lunch much better than she's been known to in the past. Play time was also better, with her listening much more closely to what I asked her to do.

Particularly effective is when I ask her "What did I ask you to do?" and have her repeat it back to me. There must be a brain-focus thing there that young kids need.

Anyway, bathroom time when we got home was relatively uneventful. I wasn't available to "help," but I was available for other things. Nap time took a little while, but not too bad, to get her down. Five minutes, that is, rather than 20 minutes.

I had a hard time waking her up after two hours, and eventually turned on Ernie & Bert's greatest hits and carrying her down to the living room to listen while I finished supper. High-middle-low and the Imagination Song finally got her up and moving.

Supper was very good, but then again, it's Rosh Hashanah and we had lots of sweet things with supper. Hard for a kid to turn down apples & honey or chocolate strawberries. (And yes, I made sure the meal was balanced.)

After supper we went out for a walk. It was dusk, so when we got to a relatively dark area, we lay down on the grass and watched the stars come out. We live in a city, so we never got to the thousands-upon-thousands of stars that I love so much, but even the few dozen we saw were worth it.

As we walked, there was a lot of sadness about not being with Mommy. I need to think a lot about whether she's being manipulative with that or not. Sometimes, I think she may be. At other times, though, my sense is that she is genuinely very sad about not being able to be with her.

Anyway, we went back to the house in time to do bedtime routine. I focused on limiting the time available for bathroom breaks; five minutes before the rest of the bedtime routine, five more minutes afterwards. In both cases, she wanted me to be there all the way through, but I declined.

Bedtime itself was pretty quiet. After she went to the bathroom the last time, I reminded her that the correct answer to "Good night, DD. I love you." is "Good night, Mama. I love you, too." And you know, I didn't hear from her again.

She woke up briefly at 2am and walked into my room. I got up and walked her back to her bed, made she she lay down, and sat there for about a minute with my hand on her chest. When she was all sleepy and bleary eyed, I went back to my own bed. And even though I was awake for the next 40 minutes, I didn't hear from her again until 6:15am.

Success!!!!!

The rule is that once it's daylight, she can climb in with us. She doesn't have a clock in her room, so it's the only easy measure of "morning" we've found. Luckily, it's getting dark later and later each day.

This morning was, all in all, more of the same. Not perfect, but much, much better.

And now I get a four day break to be a grownup and catch up on my own sleep. I'm going to take advantage of it.

Oh, and that thing about kids misbehaving with the parent they're closest to? I would like to believe that, but I'm not sure I really do. I think there's a lot that drives how kids misbehave. Security is one of them -- but it's not always true that kids behave worst when they feel most secure.

Also, with regard to power struggles and manipulation, I agree that that's part of what's going on. At the same time, I have long since learned that DD works best with a gentle hand, rather than a firm one. A little bit of flexibility on my part tends to ease things tremendously, rather than making things more difficult. So I try to pick my battles and to know which ones I have to win, and which are optional. As several folks have said, safety and respect are not optional. Socks, however, usually are.

ThyPeace, whose daughter's feet are stinky all summer long.

That is really funny ThyPeace...my boys feet are too...those sandals - so gross. Crocs don't make them stink near as bad - but they get filthy in them! LOL...kids!

Hmm...

I do think the ending co-sleeping thing is going to be huge and an ongoing struggle. You guys (both parents) are imposing your power there. It's kind of arbitrary -- "it was OK for a while, but now it's not." There isn't any clear intuitive reason as to why it's not OK anymore, except that you're engaged, and that's not a reason that will sit well with a 4.5-year-old. (Her thought process there is likely to be something along the lines of "Mama's fiance is more important to her than I am...")

That doesn't mean you don't have the right to impose your power in that area, but I think it stands to reason that it's going to get a daytime reaction from her.

Do you have any kind of a reward system? That helped my daughter a lot when we were transitioning away from co-sleeping. It made it feel more like an accomplishment.

We made a chart, sort of a stair-step deal. First 2 squares in a row, then 3, then 4, etc. There was a picture of the reward at the end of each row. When she stayed in her bed all night, she could put a fancy sparkly sticker on one of the squares. When a row of squares was filled out, she got a small reward. Then it took 3 nights to get the reward. Etc.

When she had stayed in her bed for the whole chart -- I think we had 6 rows, ranging from 2 nights to 7 nights -- she got a big reward (a special doll she really wanted).

That really helped her see it as a positive thing, and not just horrible punishment. Co-sleeping was a major way to bond, and we definitely had to up the cuddle time during the day to compensate.

Anyway, that's all about transitioning away from co-sleeping. Another thing that strikes me is what you say about the "correct answer." I totally, totally agree that one should choose one's battles rather than haggling over every little thing. But I see the answer to "Good night, DD. I love you" as being far, far less important yet than whether she wears socks or not. I think that if you have a lot of little "correct" things like that, that could add to the overall tension level, and make it more difficult for her to follow all of these rules.

One more question -- how often is she going between your house and your ex's?

Sounds like setting firm limits is working well. Good for you, ThyPeace.

ThyPeace--

Glad to see you back and posting.

You wrote:



I take it "Mommie" is her stepmother?

Is it possible that DD would like to have all the grownups she loves under one roof?

You're lucky that there is a united front between her two parents as far as discipline goes. DD is bright enough and enterprising enough to take advantage of any parental disunity.

"The easy way or the hard way" is a good line. Charming, strong-willed little four year old girls are not in charge. Grownups are.

"What did I ask you to do?" is another good line. You're making it clear that you expect your talk-talk to be heard and acted upon.

All the same, I'd keep my seat belt fashioned. DD is a child of infinite resource somewhere between the terrible twos and the turbulent teens.

Hold your dominion.

Noddy, I'm somewhat confused on this point too but I think what ThyPeace is saying is that her ex is also a woman. That is, DD has two mommies -- one is called Mama, one is called Mommy. "Mama" is ThyPeace, "Mommy" is ThyPeace's ex.

That's what it sounds like to me, too. I'm wondering if one is birth Mom, if DD knows that or not, or if she is adopted.

When I was going back over what ThyPeace has said so far I found this, which was either added after I read the post or I plain missed it:



ThyPeace, she does seem to be exhibiting stress, doesn't she? Kids don't always link the displays of stress to the stressor in a nice obvious way, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of it.

Starting school, stopping co-sleeping, one mom getting married, another mom having a new baby, going back and forth every 4 days or so (?) -- wow! No wonder there are some problems!

I agree that those were both good lines ("easy way/ hard way" and "what did I say?") and looks like you're on your way to getting through this multi-transitional rough spot...

I've resisted ending co-sleeping for so long because I didn't see a reason to do it. I like co-sleeping and so does she. I'm not sure that my fiance will really play into her thought processes; he hasn't talked to her about it, and he's only at my house every other weekend anyway. Most of the nights she's with me, he's not there.

At the same time, there were also ongoing problems with it, including that she was doing different things at different houses. (My ex has been opposed to co-sleeping since DD was born. DD slept in my arms from her first night home until she was 3 months old, then slept in a bassinet on my side of the bed. My ex insisted on the crib at six months.)

Yes, we do have a reward system for it, though. DD wants a Cinderella dress. This one, to be precise:

Cinderella dress from Target

She earns a dollar toward the dress every night she sleeps in her own bed. She can also earn money by reading to me, doing extra chores, and doing number and math things. She's got about $10 at the moment, so we've got a ways to go. Our rule is that the sleeping has to be better than the last time she did it. The first night she was up for two hours, but made it through in her bed. She earned her dollar. The next night, she was up for an hour, but made it through in her bed. She earned her dollar. The third night, she was up for 45 minutes. Etc.

ThyPeace, loves crocs for summertime. They're much easier to put on than sandals. But DD's feet are still stinky.

What's the reason you've given her for ending co-sleeping?

Yes, I'm Mama and my ex is Mommy.

DD has said many times that she wishes she were a baby again so that she could have both her parents at the same time. My standard response is, "I know, sweetheart. I wanted that, too, but that's not that way it turned out."

The backstory here is long and rather complicated. A very short version is that my ex had our daughter using a sperm donor who is a close friend of ours. She became involved with her new husband while pregnant, and, after our daughter was born, decided to marry him instead of keeping her vows to me and our daughter. DD is not biologically related to me, nor have I adopted her. Nonetheless, we have joint legal and physical custody. Custody is not the same as the legal parental rights associated with adoption, and the battle over DD was pretty ugly.

At this point, DD goes back and forth between us in a fairly complicated pattern that's evolved over time. The last couple of weeks have been different because of holidays, so there've been some longer stretches with each of us, but here's the usual:

Mon: With me until evening.
Tues: With ex.
Wed: With me after school.
Thurs: With me.
Fri: With ex after school.
Sat: With ex
Sun: With ex
Mon: Comes to me after school, back to ex in evening.
Tues: With ex.
Wed: With me after school.
Thurs: With me.
Fri: With ex after school.
Sat: Comes to me in the morning.
Sun: With me.
[Repeat.]

I don't claim that this makes any sense on a kid level at all. But it's better than we had a year ago, when DD was still on the schedule we set up when she was an infant. Now there are four transitions a week. Then there were eight. I'd like to see even fewer and an even time split, but my ex isn't ready to do that. (We started at zero for me and have worked up to 45% over the last four years. We'll get there...)

As for the new baby being a source of stress, I don't think it is. She's expressed absolutely no qualms about it at all. I suspect that we will see some significant stress there after the baby is born next month. Poor DD does have a lot of growing to do this year!

Soz--

Thanks for the clarification.

ThyPeace--

DD as Cinderella? Pity the Wicked Stepsisters.

You sound wistful about the co-sleeping coming to an end. Transitions are hard for everyone.

"Big girls sleep in their own beds."

Complicated, complicated, complicated!

In my experience, kids don't like complicated very much. Especially little ones.

Does DD want to be a big girl? That line of reasoning never really worked with my daughter. She was happy to stay little if it meant that she got the perks she got when she was little.



Again, while she's expressing qualms about this or qualms about something else, she's expressing qualms! Your first post was about the many qualms she's expressing, at a 4-year-old level. With kids there isn't always necessarily a way to link a qualm to the cause except for timing.

Anyway, appreciating the info and the lucid way you're conveying it. My advice remains pretty much the same. Set reasonable limits, take preventive measures, up the cuddle time, and be consistent. That's important for all kids, but sounds especially important for your DD.

My gut tells me that something has to be done about that schedule, too, but I don't know that much about it. I know that when my parents divorced when I was 13 it was hell for me to go back and forth on a weekly basis -- that was extended to bi-weekly, then monthly, then my mom (to her great credit) agreed to let me stay at my dad's (closer to school) during the school year and stay with her during the summer.

I don't know if the kind of back-and-forth you describe would be harder or easier for a little kid. Plus everyone varies.

Update: DD is with my ex for the next three days. I've come down with a cold and, based on what my ex says, I suspect DD is headed that way, too. She was up in the night complaining of a head- tummy- back- ache. Ex gave her ibuprofen and she went back to sleep without trouble, so we're guessing real pain versus emotional pain.

Some of what you and I view as complicated, DD views as "life as she knows it." When it's not her regular life is when she sees things getting complicated.

The research I've seen and been told about is that young children do best with shorter, more frequent visits with each parent. This is particularly true for infants, who don't have a long enough memory to be away from one parent or the other for an entire week. With infants, the goal is time with each parent each day. (If you want them to build a strong primary parental attachment with both of them, that is.)

You also want each parent to provide the full gamut of parenting activities -- getting up, dressing, eating, napping, playing, disciplining, etc. Once, long ago, I got a long discourse on development of solid parent-child attachments from one of the premier experts on the subject. He works at the National Institutes of Health and my attorney was a friend of his. It was very useful in figuring out how to structure our daughter's custody time to make sure that my ex didn't prevent the parental attachment from developing as fully as it could.

As kids get older, transitions stress them steadily more. So you slowly back off on the number of transitions and give them longer periods of time with each parent. That happens (in a best-case scenario) gradually as kids grow. By the time they start school, it appears that the best* situation is that the kid spend a week at one house, then a week at the other, with an evening and dinner in the middle with the other parent.

*Best is a relative term, here. I'm pretty sure that "best" is actually a single home with two parents living in it. But sometimes best isn't available, and then you look for the solution that causes the least harm and promotes the most benefit.

I agree that I had no luck with inspirational "Big Boy" labels. I did have some success with "Medium sized boys go potty in the toilet," and "Medium sized boys put laundry in the hamper".

Evidently "Big Boy" was too daunting, but "Medium Sized Boy" worked very nicely. (In fact, when they were 8 and 9 and 10 I heard each of them use the "Medium-Sized" ideal to toddlers of their acquaintance--and it worked. )

Also, if you're old enough to go potty in the toilet, you're old enough to climb up and get a drink of water All By Yourself.

(Obviously, I was raised to believe All By Yourself/Myself was a highly desirable state of affairs)

Frankly DD's living schedule sounds chaotic to me, but I can see the advantages for an infant.

Does she have more morning tantrums when she'll be picked up after school to go to her other house? Fewer? No relationship? With such a complicated life she may well resent unexpected changes in her complex schedule.

DD is obviously a child who is developing her own agendas and timetables and she may be having moments when shuttling rapidly between homes isn't to her liking. One of the notions she may be picking up at pre-school is that not all little girls have different homes every day.

I noticed this from your OP and it sounds like total manipulation to me. After time she came up with a reason that would be acceptable.. if this was the case then she would have said it at the time.

I have a four year old... nearly 5 who sounds much like your DD. We are going through very much the same thing as you right now. So I am getting some good ideas from this thread. I know my DD is bright and can easily manipulate adults, the joys of the bright and the verbal! We are working on being very calm ourselves and sticking to a very strict routine. I am lucky that my DD only does this at home. When she was younger and occasionally did it when we were out, I would lock her in the car while she raged.... it seemed to calm her down and she was safer. I was right next to the car ignoring her... LOL as if!

Not sure if I am helping but hopefully if nothing else you will know you are not alone!