Two examples of dealing with failure.

eoe wrote:

I was going to bring up the word 'HONOR' but I guess ol' Webster ought to just scratch that stuffy and old-fashioned word from the dictionary. It no longer applies to anything anywhere anymore.

Eoe,

The word "honor" has always been fiction. It is far too subjective to have any real meaning. I realized this when I read how men and women of honor owned slaves.

The people I respect the most in history were never considered honorable while they were alive (and I am not sure if honor matters after you are dead).

This is one of those words invented so we can feel superior to others.

There is no reason to believe the people of times past were morally superior to us in any way.

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Noddy24 wrote:

EhBrown--

I feel that Act II should always be as powerful as Act I.

Damn fools can choose to stay damn fools--or they can try to become the best they can be.

I have no patience with wilful fools, but a great deal of sympathy with striving fools.

Noddy,

I think we agree about grabbing second chances.

The difficult question we are touching on is how do we judge the value of a life.

In my opinion, we are all fools-- each of us has to figure out what our foolish lives mean. Unfortunately whether we are "willful" or "striving" is a matter of subjective judgment in all but the most extreme cases.

The fact that I have made mistakes... but still find value in life, especially in my family and friends and work, makes me hesitant to judge others especially when they do an act of contrition.

I think the different responses from these two men are interesting in this respect.

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EhBrown--

"Judge not that ye may not be judged"?

I respect the special relationship each human being has with the infinite, but what about rendering unto Caesar?

Vick may well be sincere in his remorse and inspired to reform, but he broke federal laws and disregarded the ground rules of the NFL.

He's got a rocky road ahead.

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To some extent, we are comparing apples to oranges.

What Vick did is truly reprehensible. His apology says all the right things, but doesn't ring true for me. The reality is that his actions will speak for him going forward. It's a George Wallace moment. If the rest of his life speaks to his conversion, that is how he will be remembered.

Criag really didn't do anything worth getting all bent out of shape about. His crime is not so much the bathroom incident, but the refusal to accept responsibility for it. What we need from him is the apology for the crime. "Afraid of losing all that I value, my career, my family, my reputation, I denied my culpability for my actions in Minn. and my sexual identity. I blamed everyone but myself for the way my life has turned out instead of recognizing how my own choices have led me to this point. I take responsibility for my actions and will continue to represent the good people of Idaho to the best of my ability." That would do it for me. If he made a statement like that from the start, the national press would have moved on days ago.

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engineer wrote:

Criag really didn't do anything worth getting all bent out of shape about. His crime is not so much the bathroom incident, but the refusal to accept responsibility for it.

I don't think that the main problem is not that he refused to take responsibility for the incident, (although that issue is important) but the fact that he was exposed as a hypocrite.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Eoe,

The word "honor" has always been fiction.

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Noddy,

Rendering unto Caesar means he will serve prison time. I think he should serve prison time. My impulse is to protect him from the angry mob outside of prison.

It is my belief that having served his time... he should not be destroyed for the rest of his life.

Engineer,

Craig's sin is of hypocrisy. I tend to be much harsher on hypocrisy than on any other sin. The fact that he committed no felony is the reason he will serve no jail time. However his unwillingness to deal with the glaring contradiction in his life is a personal failing.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

I don't think that the main problem is not that he refused to take responsibility for the incident, (although that issue is important) but the fact that he was exposed as a hypocrite.[/color][/b]

He's not a hypocrite. He's always said he's a homo-hater, he's always voted as a homo-hater and it is clear he still is a homo-hater. That he hates himself and his temporary partners is sad, but I don't see where he has ever been less than consistent.

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Eoe,

I make a big distinction between slavishly following the conventions of society (i.e. what other people think), and having a personal morality.

Of course I agree with you about keeping promises and holding to principles.

We differ when you start using words like "shame" which to me imply that I care more that people are looking down on me, then for the fact that I did something wrong.

I would never tell my kids not to shame me. If my kids make bad decisions in life, my first concern is going to be for their welfare (and this includes spiritual welfare). Worrying about them "shaming me" (i.e. causing me to lose social prestige) when they have gotten themselves into trouble seems awfully selfish.

I don't care much for social rules... many of them are stupid and some of them are immoral.

Each person needs to figure out what it means to be a decent, caring person irregardless of what general society thinks.

Many of the heroes of history were thought quite rude... and I can't think of a single time where society has changed for the better that didn't involve breaking social norms.

For example, do you know what honorable people thought of the suffragettes?

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ebrown_p wrote:

Eoe,

I make a big distinction between slavishly following the conventions of society (i.e. what other people think), and having a personal morality.

Same here.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
I'm totally responsible, and those things just didn't have to happen. I feel like we all make mistakes. It's just I made a mistake in using bad judgment and making bad decisions. And you know, those things, you know, just can't happen.

ebrown_p - At first blush, I would agree with you that Vick is contrite, and sorry for what he had done. Maybe I am a bit jaded, but after thinking it over, I am wondering if he was simply playing to the third balcony, and hoping to suffuse his foundering career with some damage control.

On second thought, I tend to think that what Vick was sorry for was being caught.

As far as Larry Craig is concerned, he was caught (literally) with his pants down.
For a man who has opposed gay rights,
he, like many other politicians, is a pious hypocrite.
He too is looking for damage control.

I would not trust his statement as far as I could throw an elephant. If he shook my hand, I would count my fingers afterwards.[/b]

I have not followed his career as far as " gay rights " are concerned.
Exactly WHICH " gay rights " did he oppose ?
Did he try to get married in the bathroom ?
HOW was he hypocritical ?

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David,

That joke belongs to Conan OBrian.

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but, thay r complaining about absence
of matrimonial rights for homosexuals

Truthfully, I have not kept abreast of his philosophy
concerning homosexuality and the law,
altho I know that he has been a friend of liberty, more generally.

I think of him as a GOOD guy.
David

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P.S.:
I did not knowingly plagiarize Conan 's joke.

I don 't watch him much.

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OmSigDAVID wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
I'm totally responsible, and those things just didn't have to happen. I feel like we all make mistakes. It's just I made a mistake in using bad judgment and making bad decisions. And you know, those things, you know, just can't happen.

ebrown_p - At first blush, I would agree with you that Vick is contrite, and sorry for what he had done. Maybe I am a bit jaded, but after thinking it over, I am wondering if he was simply playing to the third balcony, and hoping to suffuse his foundering career with some damage control.

On second thought, I tend to think that what Vick was sorry for was being caught.

As far as Larry Craig is concerned, he was caught (literally) with his pants down.
For a man who has opposed gay rights,
he, like many other politicians, is a pious hypocrite.
He too is looking for damage control.

I would not trust his statement as far as I could throw an elephant. If he shook my hand, I would count my fingers afterwards.[/b]

I have not followed his career as far as " gay rights " are concerned.
Exactly WHICH " gay rights " did he oppose ?
Did he try to get married in the bathroom ?
HOW was he hypocritical ?

Why don't you educate yourself on currents affairs rather than expose yourself as woefully ignorant?

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Has anyone really looked at Craig's wife? She may be the cause of his gay impulses.

I happen to live in a Republican stronghold. It makes me afraid to go to the mens room.

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Re: Two examples of dealing with failure.

ebrown_p wrote:

Two public figures recently pled guilty to crimes.

The way they each are asking the public for forgiveness are interesting in comparison.

First, Michael Vick (who pled guilty to charges stemming from dog fighting.

Quote:

I take full responsibility for my actions. For one second will I sit right here - not for one second will I sit right here and point the finger and try to blame anybody else for my actions or what I've done.

I'm totally responsible, and those things just didn't have to happen. I feel like we all make mistakes. It's just I made a mistake in using bad judgment and making bad decisions. And you know, those things, you know, just can't happen.

Dog fighting is a terrible thing, and I did reject it.

I'm upset with myself, and, you know, through this situation I found Jesus and asked him for forgiveness and turned my life over to God. And I think that's the right thing to do as of right now.

Like I said, for this - for this entire situation I never pointed the finger at anybody else, I accepted responsibility for my actions of what I did and now I have to pay the consequences for it. But in a sense, I think it will help, you know, me as a person. I got a lot to think about in the next year or so.

Michael Vick

Next, Republican Senator Larry Craig (who pled guilty to charges stemming from initiating sexual contact with an undercover cop in a men's bathroom).

Quote:

For a moment, I want to put my state of mind into context on June 11. For 8 months leading up to June, my family and I had been relentlessly and viciously harassed by the Idaho Statesman. If you've seen today's paper, you know why.

Let me be clear: I am not gay and never have been.

Senator Craigs Statement

I respect people who take responsibility for their actions.

I hope, for his sake, that Vick is sincere in his contrition, but I have my doubts. Time will tell.

I'm not sure what it means to "take responsibility" for one's actions.

Vick, of course, didn't turn himself in, and he also didn't decide to plead guilty until he knew the Feds had him cold, and for worse than he plead to.

He rejects dog-fighting? What does that mean? He will never engage in it again? He will dedicate some portion of his fortune and time to eradicating it?

There's something depressing about the fact that we might feel a sense of respect towards a felon, caught red-handed, who has agreed to a plea bargain and is about to face sentencing, getting on a microphone and "taking responsibility."

Unfortunately, people like Senator Craig have lead us to this sad state of affairs.

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Roxxxanne wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
I'm totally responsible, and those things just didn't have to happen. I feel like we all make mistakes. It's just I made a mistake in using bad judgment and making bad decisions. And you know, those things, you know, just can't happen.

ebrown_p - At first blush, I would agree with you that Vick is contrite, and sorry for what he had done. Maybe I am a bit jaded, but after thinking it over, I am wondering if he was simply playing to the third balcony, and hoping to suffuse his foundering career with some damage control.

On second thought, I tend to think that what Vick was sorry for was being caught.

As far as Larry Craig is concerned, he was caught (literally) with his pants down.
For a man who has opposed gay rights,
he, like many other politicians, is a pious hypocrite.
He too is looking for damage control.

I would not trust his statement as far as I could throw an elephant. If he shook my hand, I would count my fingers afterwards.[/b]

I have not followed his career as far as " gay rights " are concerned.
Exactly WHICH " gay rights " did he oppose ?
Did he try to get married in the bathroom ?
HOW was he hypocritical ?

Quote:
Why don't you educate yourself on currents affairs
rather than expose yourself as woefully ignorant?

That depends on current affairs about WHAT ??
I have little interest in current affairs qua homosexuals' legal issues.

My ego is strong enuf to comfortably withstand
exposure as being woefully ignorant of homosexuals' current affairs.

This is not to imply
that I bear them ill will; I find no reason for hostility.

David

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

engineer wrote:
Criag really didn't do anything worth getting all bent out of shape about. His crime is not so much the bathroom incident, but the refusal to accept responsibility for it.

I don't think that the main problem is not that he refused to take responsibility for the incident,
(although that issue is important)
but the fact that he was exposed as a hypocrite.

Specificly HOW was he hypocritical ??
Will u explain that to us ?

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I am beginning to think that Craig is not a hypocrite. He really hates gays, as well as himself. Under such circumstances, he is not a hypocrite.

However, he is a liar when he incessantly proclaims that he is not, and has never been, gay.

Unfortunately, when he appeared on TV recently, you could not see his feet. I am sure he was uncontrollably tapping away.

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Two examples of dealing with failure.

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