Pro-'surge' group is almost all Jewish

Re: Pro-'surge' group is almost all Jewish

Zippo wrote:

"Four of five members of the board of a campaign promoting President Bush's policies in the Iraq war are Republican Jews..."

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103795.html

It's not, that i don't like Jews. My 'myspace' account has a jewish girl friend.

O.K. you don't dislike Jews. And your myspace account has a Jewish girlfriend. And I'm sure you know a bagel was originally a Jewish bread.

However, when one needs to point out that there is a "cluster" of Jews somewhere, what is the point? Would you point out a cluster of Protestants? A cluster of Irish? A cluster of Catholics? Me thinks you are not being forthcoming with your specific feelings, if you need to have your disclaimer about a Jewish girlfriend, etc.

I'm sorry you have this need to point out that Jews are Republicans, or that they back the President. Or, is that so surprising? Or, is there another inference here?

Pointing out that these Jews back the surge, might just make some Gentiles be against the war, since if Jews are for it...

Lastly, I don't think anyone cares if you like, or dislike Jews. Have you ever heard a Jew say they like or dislike (all) Gentiles? They wouldn't say it, since it sounds silly, I believe, even if that was what was felt. Please don't make silly statements, I'm trying to treat your posts seriously.

0 Replies

Re: Pro-'surge' group is almost all Jewish

Zippo wrote:

"Four of five members of the board of a campaign promoting President Bush's policies in the Iraq war are Republican Jews..."

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103795.html

It's not, that i don't like Jews. My 'myspace' account has a jewish girl friend.

zippo i find your posts, although not satirical in the least, bordering on antisemitism.

please stop it.

0 Replies

If Zippo is an Anti-semite what are the jews on the board promoting the surge.

There must be an equivalent term for a jew that does not like Muslims. That would only be fair.

Or for that matter a name we can assign to any group that has committed genocide or hate on another group. That would naturally be fair and equal.

Inless to be equal was not the purpose.

What is the equal politically correct term to anti-semite for Anti-palestinian.

The crimes are equal

0 Replies

Amigo wrote:

If Zippo is an Anti-semite what are the jews on the board promoting the surge.

There must be an equivalent term for a jew that does not like Muslims. That would only be fair.

Or for that matter a name we can assign to any group that has committed genocide or hate on another group. That would naturally be fair and equal.

Inless to be equal was not the purpose.

What is the equal politically correct term to anti-semite for Anti-palestinian.

The crimes are equal

In my opinion, the Jews that are promoting the military surge should be called "patriotic." The fact they are of any particular background is a non-sequitor when it comes to patriotism.

Also, since Arabs are Semites, as well as Jews, anyone that is anti-Palestinian is an anti-Semite, even if a Jew is anti-Palestinian.

Perhaps, when a Palestinian is anti-Jew, or a Jew is anti-Palestinian, since both groups are Semites, they cancel each other out like in algebra? We're left with nothing we can define.

I don't believe either of these two groups are really correct for having strong feelings towards each other. I've read that their DNA is very, very similar. The strong feelings are just about land. No real feelings, I believe, about each other's culture, religion, language. They really both stem from the same early nomad in the region, I believe.

If the Jews in Israel woke up one morning and all said, "Today's a good day to become a Moslem," what would happen? The whole problem would end?

0 Replies

Do you agree with this statement, Foofie? : (a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do)

*Jews throughout history are well known to look after their own people.*

yes or no?

It is documented in history books. This is their secret to survival. I have complimented their intelligence.

Question: Why should Jews in USA change their faithfulness towards their own people and take the risk of getting extinct?

0 Replies

Zippo wrote:

Do you agree with this statement, Foofie? : (a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do)

*Jews throughout history are well known to look after their own people.*

yes or no?

It is documented in history books. This is their secret to survival. I have complimented their intelligence.

Question: Why should Jews in USA change their faithfulness towards their own people and take the risk of getting extinct?

Sorry, I don't give simple "yes" or "no" responses.

In my opinion, you raise an interesting question about Jews being concerned with their people. Well, that's true, because as just humans, like everyone else, they are doing what everyone else does (did we get involved in WWII to free the Sudetenland, or because England, the homeland of the American WASP, was being threatened by the Nazis?).

And have you ever heard the term, "Viva Mexico." I believe, many Mexican Americans (citizens of the U.S.) subscribe to that term too.

In effect, I believe, we Americans all have a degree of ethnocentrism. The reason, perhaps, that Jews stand out in this regard might be because they have been in a position to help their fellow Jews.

But, as far as what negative effects this has, I believe, are illusory. American Jews might tend to be pro-Israel, but much of that is a reaction to the Holocaust (where they know Germany in the 1800's was the most philo-Semitic nation - well that ended), and therefore, I believe, Israel is looked upon like a health insurance policy (since originally the Nazis just wanted the German Jews to leave; however, no one wanted them).

Notice how many people are annoyed over all the monetary aid the U.S. gives to Israel. Strangely, this feeling doesn't necessarily stop at Israel, but might continue to Jews in general. Is it possible that some Gentiles just have this hard-wired belief that all Jews are still living in some sort of tribal existence? And, therefore can't really be like everyone else? I suspect some people would agree with that thought.

You might not have been alive during Vietnam where many young Jews, because they went to college, had a college deferment, and then like so many ambitious, educated Gentile young men, possiby joined the National Guard, and avoided active service. Not only was the purpose to stay alive, but also to move forward in their careers. So, during Vietnam, Jews had the image of being anti-war. But for a self-serving reason, went the belief.

Now Jews seem to have this pro-war image? The popular explanations: Today, they don't have to serve; no draft. The war is really to protect Israel. Again a belief of a Jewish self-serving reason.

So, they are always on the wrong side of popular public opinion. Or, rather that they do things for the Jewish self-serving reason. No one else is self-serving in their actions. Now, that's not true, we know.

But, the biggest canard is they have all this political influence, out of proportion to their small numbers. No; this is a Gentile country, and wealthy, powerful Gentiles make the decisions.

However, it never hurts to demonize the intentions of Jews by pointing out that their actions are self-serving. (And all the other people are little angels working for the common good. Ha!!!!) Could you imagine what could happen if people were not a little anti-Semitic. "God, maybe Jews really could take over." In the meantime so much anti-Semitism reflects Gentiles' nightmares.

I'll explain: do you know of the psychological term, "projection"? We project onto others the traits we don't want to admit we just might have. We don't like to see a reflection of ourselves which might include traits we want to claim we never could have.

For example, some young men are very concerned which other young men are not masculine "enough." Why the interest, if not because they are concerned about their own masculine image? It's called reaction formation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation

My point is that throughout history, Jews have been the recipients of Gentiles' projected fears regarding their own not so positive/nice traits. So, Fagin, in Oliver Twist, nicely served the reader to enjoy the story more, since Fagin, the Jew, was the evil person teaching young street urchins how to pick pockets. The inference is good Christian people would never do that. I believe, it helped make the book a classic; not saying though that was the intent of the author.

Hope you enjoyed reading all of this response.

0 Replies

Quote:

For example, some young men are very concerned which other young men are not masculine "enough." Why the interest, if not because they are concerned about their own masculine image?

Thanks for the good read, Foofie. Smile

Basically, what you are saying is that most people (Gentiles) are antisemitic/anti-jewish because they are jealous of Jewish achievements in terms of prosperity, intelligence, etc?

Quote:

In my opinion, you raise an interesting question about Jews being concerned with their people. Well, that's true

And the answer to my original question was 'yes' ?

You are correct that Jews have been persecuted throughout history and that is a good reason for them to stick together, however, the chances of another 'holocaust' is zero. Israel has nuclear weapons as a deterrent, this should be good enough to defend themselves against any attacks by Iran or anyone else. Israel is more likely to be aggressor. Israel can look after itself, so why take advantage of US hospitality?

Haven't we done enough for your people ?

It is quite hard for some folks to believe that powerful American Jews would sacrifice the instinction of their people for 'US patriotism' ?

This is the common excuse used by neoconservatives to redirect billions to 'help' Israel. Using the 'holocaust' card.

0 Replies

Zippo wrote:

Quote:
For example, some young men are very concerned which other young men are not masculine "enough." Why the interest, if not because they are concerned about their own masculine image?

Thanks for the good read, Foofie.

Basically, what you are saying is that most people (Gentiles) are antisemitic/anti-jewish because they are jealous of Jewish achievements in terms of prosperity, intelligence, etc?

Quote:
In my opinion, you raise an interesting question about Jews being concerned with their people. Well, that's true

And the answer to my original question was 'yes' ?

You are correct that Jews have been persecuted throughout history and that is a good reason for them to stick together, however, the chances of another 'holocaust' is zero. Israel has nuclear weapons as a deterrent, this should be good enough to defend themselves against any attacks by Iran or anyone else. Israel is more likely to be aggressor. Israel can look after itself, so why take advantage of US hospitality?

Haven't we done enough for your people ?

It is quite hard for some folks to believe that powerful American Jews would sacrifice the instinction of their people for 'US patriotism' ?

Jews are not my people. That's a false assumption that all Jews are clannish. I feel closer to educated Gentiles. But, if the U.S. government wants to help Israel, it's not just because of Jewish lobbyists, western countries have a benefit from Israel existing. Don't believe me. (Don't Israel's neighbors have to buy expensive defense systems, with Israel being their? When the U.S. gives money to Israel, they turn around and buy military aircraft from the U.S. Hey, that's benefitting those corporations from our tax dollars. See the connection?)

And, I would doubt there will be another Nazi style Holocaust, but there could be a war in Israel that kills a lot of people. Wars do that sort of thing.

In the U.S., Jews, I believe, will inter-marry to a higher degree. Those that don't will just become another religion amongst all the others here. That's based on whether America remains prosperous and anti-Semitism becomes something of the past. The U.S. is so diverse, that can happen, especially if Jews wind up valued for the niche they serve in society (doctor, lawyer, teacher, candle-stick maker).

But, I'm optimistic, even though many younger people understand anti-Semitism today, but can't quite shake the feeling that Jews are inherently different for one reason or another, and therefore are still the perennial outsiders. (They could move into the neighborhhood, and then there's a "darkened" house in December).

By the way, Spock's Vulcan sign in StarTrek (the middle fingers spread apart as a "V") was the sign of the Hebrew high priests (Leonard Nimoy is Jewish). It was supposed to be an inherited trait, so non high priests couldn't pretend to be a Hebrew high priest. Notice how many people can do that "V," without touching the fingers. A surprising number can. Many can't. Makes one wonder.

0 Replies

Jews are not inherently different in any way, but the aid the US gives to Israel is unsupportable and wrong on many levels, and should be ended immediately. They don't need it, and we don't need the trouble it brings us.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Jews are not inherently different in any way, but the aid the US gives to Israel is unsupportable and wrong on many levels, and should be ended immediately. They don't need it, and we don't need the trouble it brings us.

Cycloptichorn

It's also right on many levels, whether it helps the international economy, or our corporations, (the Israelis spend the aid money), or just allows Israelis to have a place to live. By Israel existing, it also allows Christian Pilgrims to see the Holy Land. Would all other religions allow Christian Pilgrims access?

People don't like that aid money coming from U.S. taxpayer's dollars. I truly understand the feeling. But, you have heard the saying, "What goes around, comes around." Maybe the U.S. should have opened its doors to European Jewry when those bad, bad Nazis were just initially looking for a place to send Europe's Jews?

Perhaps, in a way, that aid we give Israel is penance for a sin of omission??? Is a "sin of omission" only part of Catholic teaching? Or also Protestant?

0 Replies

Foofie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Jews are not inherently different in any way, but the aid the US gives to Israel is unsupportable and wrong on many levels, and should be ended immediately. They don't need it, and we don't need the trouble it brings us.

Cycloptichorn

It's also right on many levels, whether it helps the international economy, or our corporations, (the Israelis spend the aid money), or just allows Israelis to have a place to live. By Israel existing, it also allows Christian Pilgrims to see the Holy Land. Would all other religions allow Christian Pilgrims access?

People don't like that aid money coming from U.S. taxpayer's dollars. I truly understand the feeling. But, you have heard the saying, "What goes around, comes around." Maybe the U.S. should have opened its doors to European Jewry when those bad, bad Nazis were just initially looking for a place to send Europe's Jews?

Perhaps, in a way, that aid we give Israel is penance for a sin of omission??? Is a "sin of omission" only part of Catholic teaching? Or also Protestant?

Ridiculousness.

I am uninterested in the US government using my tax dollars to help US corporations make profits off of selling weapons to Israel.

I am uninterested in the US government using my tax dollars to help Christians have a secure way of getting to the 'holy land' for a visit.

Neither of these are legitimate uses of tax monies whatsoever, and are unsupportable by any argument.

It is a verifiable fact that our military and political alliance with Israel has brought major problems upon the shores of the US. It is also a fact that there are people in the US who seek to equate criticism of Israel, their policies, and our policies towards them with anti-antisemitism. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it is a base canard to suggest that this is true.

I don't believe in 'sin' and the need to pay it back, on a national scale. It can easily be said that the US during WW2 more then repaid anything we could have owed, when we stopped the Nazi menace from taking over Europe. To imply that we are somehow beholden to continue to give money and support to a theocracy is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Jews are not inherently different in any way, but the aid the US gives to Israel is unsupportable and wrong on many levels, and should be ended immediately. They don't need it, and we don't need the trouble it brings us.

Cycloptichorn

It's also right on many levels, whether it helps the international economy, or our corporations, (the Israelis spend the aid money), or just allows Israelis to have a place to live. By Israel existing, it also allows Christian Pilgrims to see the Holy Land. Would all other religions allow Christian Pilgrims access?

People don't like that aid money coming from U.S. taxpayer's dollars. I truly understand the feeling. But, you have heard the saying, "What goes around, comes around." Maybe the U.S. should have opened its doors to European Jewry when those bad, bad Nazis were just initially looking for a place to send Europe's Jews?

Perhaps, in a way, that aid we give Israel is penance for a sin of omission??? Is a "sin of omission" only part of Catholic teaching? Or also Protestant?

Ridiculousness.

I am uninterested in the US government using my tax dollars to help US corporations make profits off of selling weapons to Israel.

I am uninterested in the US government using my tax dollars to help Christians have a secure way of getting to the 'holy land' for a visit.

Neither of these are legitimate uses of tax monies whatsoever, and are unsupportable by any argument.

It is a verifiable fact that our military and political alliance with Israel has brought major problems upon the shores of the US. It is also a fact that there are people in the US who seek to equate criticism of Israel, their policies, and our policies towards them with anti-antisemitism. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it is a base canard to suggest that this is true.

I don't believe in 'sin' and the need to pay it back, on a national scale. It can easily be said that the US during WW2 more then repaid anything we could have owed, when we stopped the Nazi menace from taking over Europe. To imply that we are somehow beholden to continue to give money and support to a theocracy is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn

I believe all of your points have an agreeing audience in some parts of this country, perhaps even in the Berkeley area (I've been told that the Berkeley area has a very outspoken anti-Zionist/anti-Israel orientation. If that's not true, sorry for the misinformation, but it was a good source.)

However, go down South, and you might find many Americans that want their tax dollars to bolster the state of Israel, and do want Israel to exist based on their religious beliefs.

While you say my arguments above are unsupportable, they are unsupportable by your values, not by everyone's values. A Born Again Evangelical Christian would have his/her own values (like knowing Jesus can only return when Jews live in Israel) and would come to a pro-Israel position.

If you notice who voted for Bush, it included 40 million, or so, Evangelical Christians. They are more pro-Israel than the average secular Jew in the U.S. (most U.S. Jews are secular). Did half the five million Jews in the U.S. vote for Bush?

Take your position down South and see the number that are for the President, the war, the surge, and Israel.

Your position may be de rigueur in Berkeley, but not throughout the country. Big country!

0 Replies

Foofie wrote:

It's also right on many levels, whether it helps the international economy, or our corporations, (the Israelis spend the aid money)

If Americans spend the money, that helps the international economy equally.

Foofie wrote:

, or just allows Israelis to have a place to live.

Where did they live before? Why do they want to live there? What about those living there before they came?

Foofie wrote:

By Israel existing, it also allows Christian Pilgrims to see the Holy Land. Would all other religions allow Christian Pilgrims access?

Absolutely. In fact, the Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet.

Foofie wrote:

People don't like that aid money coming from U.S. taxpayer's dollars. I truly understand the feeling. But, you have heard the saying, "What goes around, comes around." Maybe the U.S. should have opened its doors to European Jewry when those bad, bad Nazis were just initially looking for a place to send Europe's Jews?

Many Jews did escape to the US. We certainly did not close our borders to anyone.

Foofie wrote:

Perhaps, in a way, that aid we give Israel is penance for a sin of omission??? Is a "sin of omission" only part of Catholic teaching? Or also Protestant?

Concerning WWII German actions, I don't see any US sin to atone for.

On a different topic, when you get an absurd topic like this, if you ignore it, it will fall off the list.

0 Replies

Foofie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Jews are not inherently different in any way, but the aid the US gives to Israel is unsupportable and wrong on many levels, and should be ended immediately. They don't need it, and we don't need the trouble it brings us.

Cycloptichorn

It's also right on many levels, whether it helps the international economy, or our corporations, (the Israelis spend the aid money), or just allows Israelis to have a place to live. By Israel existing, it also allows Christian Pilgrims to see the Holy Land. Would all other religions allow Christian Pilgrims access?

People don't like that aid money coming from U.S. taxpayer's dollars. I truly understand the feeling. But, you have heard the saying, "What goes around, comes around." Maybe the U.S. should have opened its doors to European Jewry when those bad, bad Nazis were just initially looking for a place to send Europe's Jews?

Perhaps, in a way, that aid we give Israel is penance for a sin of omission??? Is a "sin of omission" only part of Catholic teaching? Or also Protestant?

Ridiculousness.

I am uninterested in the US government using my tax dollars to help US corporations make profits off of selling weapons to Israel.

I am uninterested in the US government using my tax dollars to help Christians have a secure way of getting to the 'holy land' for a visit.

Neither of these are legitimate uses of tax monies whatsoever, and are unsupportable by any argument.

It is a verifiable fact that our military and political alliance with Israel has brought major problems upon the shores of the US. It is also a fact that there are people in the US who seek to equate criticism of Israel, their policies, and our policies towards them with anti-antisemitism. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it is a base canard to suggest that this is true.

I don't believe in 'sin' and the need to pay it back, on a national scale. It can easily be said that the US during WW2 more then repaid anything we could have owed, when we stopped the Nazi menace from taking over Europe. To imply that we are somehow beholden to continue to give money and support to a theocracy is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn

I believe all of your points have an agreeing audience in some parts of this country, perhaps even in the Berkeley area (I've been told that the Berkeley area has a very outspoken anti-Zionist/anti-Israel orientation. If that's not true, sorry for the misinformation, but it was a good source.)

However, go down South, and you might find many Americans that want their tax dollars to bolster the state of Israel, and do want Israel to exist based on their religious beliefs.

While you say my arguments above are unsupportable, they are unsupportable by your values, not by everyone's values. A Born Again Evangelical Christian would have his/her own values (like knowing Jesus can only return when Jews live in Israel) and would come to a pro-Israel position.

If you notice who voted for Bush, it included 40 million, or so, Evangelical Christians. They are more pro-Israel than the average secular Jew in the U.S. (most U.S. Jews are secular). Did half the five million Jews in the U.S. vote for Bush?

Take your position down South and see the number that are for the President, the war, the surge, and Israel.

Your position may be de rigueur in Berkeley, but not throughout the country. Big country!

I'm well aware that many Fundamentalist Christians support Israel. This is immaterial to my argument, for my argument is not based upon values in the slightest, but instead upon the pillars of Law and Practicality.

From a legal standpoint, the US government should not be in the business of spending tax dollars in order to enrichen our Corporations. It isn't a legitimate function of government to do so.

From a Practical standpoint, the US receives close to zero benefit from supporting Israel, and a large amount of trouble.

The fact that a sizable number of people choose to support an illogical and faith-based position, does not make that same position logical in the slightest. Israel has the defenses and power to stand on its' own without our help; we have no special kinship with them that should demand that we help them in any way. I find it galling that monies are taken out of my paycheck, every month, in order to support a theocracy with a record that is questionable at best and despicable at worst. Even more galling is the idea that criticism of our practices somehow equates to being 'anti-Israel.'

I wouldn't know about any of the prevailing attitudes in Berkeley when it comes to this topic, as I don't build nor base my beliefs in life upon what those who live in close proximity to me think. I grew up in Texas, and no more was swayed by their penchant for religious illogic then I am swayed by non-religious illogic here.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn, has made some excellent points. I agree with everything said. Israel is using U.S as it's servant.

Something interesting...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\08\31\story_31-8-2007_pg4_2

An upcoming book challenging whether diplomatic and military support for Israel is in the best interests of the United States is set to spark fresh debate on Washington's role in the Middle East...

0 Replies

Zounds! clannish hebrews? that's the impetus to defending israel?

actually they are the only democracy worthy of the name East of the Hellespont until you reach japan and australia.

despite their ugly behavior to the palestinians they remain on our side of the "fight."

in a fight to the death only canada might be trusted to come to the aid of the US more than Israel.

yeah, jews might run the project for "The Century When the US Invades Everything," (that is the real title isn't it?). But these guys just see a "two-fer," the first is a hegemonic meta-plan on securing US predominance for controlling energy stocks for 50 years that also coincides with the second feature, viz., fulfilling Israeli security goals.

It isn't goyim guilt or a plot hatched from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, its about oil and gas.

0 Replies

Zippo wrote:

Cycloptichorn, has made some excellent points. I agree with everything said. Israel is using U.S as it's servant.

This alone should give Cycloptichorn pause to re-evaluate his position.

0 Replies

No one should forget that the bagel, once a strictly ethnic Jewish bread (bagels and lox), is now thought of as a New York thing. I mean if the bagel can assimilate, to make people's breakfasts more tasty than plain cereal, can't we see the beginnings of a trend?

I mean, Jews could easily start Anglicizing their names and with the help of inter-marriage, no one will know that a 6 foot blond guy could really be Jewish. Uh-oh. What's a paranoid Gentile to do???

It must be a plot to take over something. The exclusive golf courses? The exclusive resorts? The world's thin perky Shiksas?

One day there'll be a Star of David atop a Christmas tree; just watch.

Has everyone had enough of this silliness.

I mean this country does not kowtow to Jews, unless it is to the advantage of the "Big Daddy's" (the dying patriarch in Cat On A Hot Tin Roof that owned 60,000 acres of prime farmland, and his family was trying to ingratiate themselves to him before he died) of this country, who own this country.

But, since some people believe in magic, I must accept that some people could easily believe that, while in the Middle Ages many believed Jews had a magical way to make money (peasants possibly did not understand trade), perhaps today there are some that believe Jews have a magical power to turn minds, and make the real owners of the U.S. do their bidding. Ha!

Another reason the U.S. might support/defend Israel: The U.S. doesn't let Britain get egg on its face, so to speak, for posterity (history), I believe. So, even if putting Holocaust surviviors in the Middle East wasn't such a good idea, I don't believe, we'll ever let Mother England (yes, Mother England to all those wealthy Episcopaleans and Presbyterians and other assorted WASP's) look like she did something foolish.

But, blaming Jews is a good red herring. In fact, as long as the Arab street continues to rant against Israel, they won't really see what the bigger picture is. All Israelis could leave Israel, and there'll still be problems in the Middle East, Gaza, etc. All the Arabs don't seem to get along with each other? And they really don't live in that huge a part of the world?

I'm sorry, I believe western civilization is superior to other civilizations. You see, Israel is part of that civilization, and as such we are taking care of our own. The world is not Jewish/Gentile anymore. That's an atavistic approach. It's western/non-western. I believe our support for Israel reflects that.

0 Replies

Is it possible the very generous US aid package to Israel has something to do with the fact that the USA has the largest Jewish population in the world including Israel?

0 Replies

Pro-'surge' group is almost all Jewish

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know