3
   

Who is editing wikipedia?

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 09:08 pm
Foofie wrote:
Yes, citizens are not supposed to criticize their respective governments, if the government doesn't value that criticism.



You probably actually mean that, right?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 09:14 pm
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Yes, citizens are not supposed to criticize their respective governments, if the government doesn't value that criticism.



You probably actually mean that, right?


If the government doesn't value the criticism, they are likely to shoot you. So I suppose there is some incentive to support you government then.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 09:46 pm
That would be an incentive to shut up alright.

But what would be the patriotic thing to do?
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:44 am
i don't know how anyone can say they love freedom and then stay quiet when it's taken away piece by piece by piece.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:30 am
old europe wrote:
That would be an incentive to shut up alright.

But what would be the patriotic thing to do?


I assume you have a definition of the word "patriotic" that is not my definition. Your definition might include additional concepts like maintaining a certain degree of personal freedoms, such as free speech?

Bringing patriotism into the argument can be viewed as a red herring to someone that has my opinion. Especially, when I have a different definition of the word.

When one uses abstract concepts like the word "patriotic," one can build a cogent argument around one's preferred agenda. I don't think patriotism is my operating word. I use words, to describe my opinion, like humility, gratitude. These words prevent me from getting "on a high horse" and deciding I know what's best for the U.S. My words (humility and gratitude) prevent me from losing sight of the old saying, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:42 am
tinygiraffe wrote:
i don't know how anyone can say they love freedom and then stay quiet when it's taken away piece by piece by piece.


Who says I love "freedom"? I believe freedom can also result in mob rule or total chaos.

I think "correct regimentation" can be a good thing. What is the Ten Commandments (originally to the mob of Israelites "lost" in the desert) but a helpful dose of regimentation?

Naturally, the concern is whose definition of "correct regimentation" will be used? I put my trust in this country's definition, since I am most familiar with the Judo-Christian concepts of "correct regimentation." I believe that's what this country will follow for a very long time (based on the love of raising children by some of our most recent immigrants).

By the way, Hitler wanted the "freedom" to rearm after WWI. He exercised that freedom; look what we got.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:42 am
Quote:
My words (humility and gratitude) prevent me from losing sight of the old saying, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."


in america, we're supposed to be the hand that feeds that government.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:45 am
Quote:
By the way, Hitler wanted the "freedom" to rearm after WWI. He exercised that freedom; look what we got.


that's the funny thing... bush wants similar "freedom," and look what we're getting. good thing hitler's not your leader, eh? you'd have to be grateful to him.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:47 am
tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
My words (humility and gratitude) prevent me from losing sight of the old saying, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."


in america, we're supposed to be the hand that feeds that government.


I have no idea what that aphorism means? Stop with the pithy sayings. I used a pithy saying; one is enough.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:50 am
tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
By the way, Hitler wanted the "freedom" to rearm after WWI. He exercised that freedom; look what we got.


that's the funny thing... bush wants similar "freedom," and look what we're getting. good thing hitler's not your leader, eh? you'd have to be grateful to him.


Hitler didn't want me to be in his Germany. So, I wouldn't have to be grateful, since I wouldn't be a citizen.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:57 am
Quote:
I have no idea what that aphorism means? Stop with the pithy sayings. I used a pithy saying; one is enough.


it's not an aphorism, and it's clear you don't know what it means. it's simply the inverse of your own stupid (irrelevant) aphorism.

how can you tell me not to be pithy when you think "don't bite the hand that feeds you" is a sensible approach to a corrupt government?

"for the people, by the people." that's what i was talking about, is that too "pithy" for you?

you and i, and everyone in this country. *we* are supposed to be *our* government, not some corporate puppet. do-you-follow-that-much?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 07:04 am
tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
I have no idea what that aphorism means? Stop with the pithy sayings. I used a pithy saying; one is enough.


it's not an aphorism, and it's clear you don't know what it means. it's simply the inverse of your own stupid (irrelevant) aphorism.

how can you tell me not to be pithy when you think "don't bite the hand that feeds you" is a sensible approach to a corrupt government?

"for the people, by the people." that's what i was talking about, is that too "pithy" for you?

you and i, and everyone in this country. *we* are supposed to be *your* government, not some corporate puppet. do-you-follow-that-much?


"Don't bit the hand that feeds you," reflects the concept of gratitude. But regardless, I seem to be "hearing another drummer," not the one you hear. So, I guess I'm not following what you are following.

But, I sense a bit of umbrage? Don't be petulant; it's not good for one's enjoying this lovely day!
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 07:09 am
you sense exasperation, it's hardly personal.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 07:11 am
Foofie wrote:
"Don't bit the hand that feeds you," reflects the concept of gratitude.


Well, sometimes its really better not to look a gift horse in the mouth, especially when you know which way the wind blows.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 07:18 am
nimh wrote:
blatham wrote:
Permit me to recommend Anatol Lieven's "America, Right or Wrong...An Anatomy of American Nationalism". I think you'd appreciate the fellow's work.

He wrote a great book about the Baltic states..

I haven't bumped into that one yet...thanks, nimh
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 08:49 am
Foofie wrote:
blatham wrote:
foofie said
Quote:
That's not my job to criticize my country, nor should it be my job.


That's an interesting understanding of the relationship between citizen and his/her government. I assume the principle would hold true for an Iranian or a North Korean or, a tg alluded, for a german citizen in 1935?


...Yes, citizens are not supposed to criticize their respective governments, if the government doesn't value that criticism...


Alright. So, to recapitulate, you hear a "different drummer". Your drummer and you hold that citizens ought not to criticize their country/government if the government would rather not have such criticisms floating about. This seems to be, for you and your drummer, a fundamental principle of proper citizenship and, as you clarify above, it would apply to contemporary North Korean citizens or German citizens while their government was processing some 6 million jews. Or to Iraqis under Sadaam. Or the citizens of Leningrad under soviet communist governance. Or Iranians if their government decided to nuke Israel or Israelis if Israel decided to nuke Iran. OK then.

If nothing else commendable might be said about this opinion, it is at least consistent as principle.

But, as you are an American and, I presume, consider yourself a good American (that is, an American who holds true to basic and traditional American values) all the above leads me to wonder who your drummer is and where it is that you heard his compelling paradiddles?

Perhaps you bumped into him while studying the constitution? But then it becomes a bit tricky making sense of that first ammendment...
Quote:
Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech
Except if it criticizes the government, of course. Citizens can say anything they want about the weather or the rules of bingo. Because, as citizens, they are free in America as a matter of constitutional rights.

Of course, it would also follow, in line with your principled approach to citizenship, that the proper role of the press in America is to pass along receipes, news of puppies in trees or bus accidents and to act as a megaphone for the Dear Leaders.

Perhaps Lincoln is your drummer? Perhaps not, though, because Abe spoke out against the Mexican-American War, which he attributed to
Quote:


Perhaps it is Jefferson you hear? No, on the other hand, maybe not, your principle being a tad difficult to square with; "
Quote:
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."


Perhaps some other Founder's genius has inspired your drummer? Adams, maybe?
Quote:
The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing.



Maybe your drummer is an honored jurist and constitutional scholar? Perhaps Oliver Wendell Holmes, who wrote;
Quote:
The very aim and end of our institutions is just this: that we may think what we like and say what we think
No problem, let's keep looking.
Justice Hugo Black?
Quote:
The very reason for the First Amendment is to make the people of this country free to think, speak, write and worship as they wish, not as the Government commands.



I know! Previous Presidents of the US could be the place we'll find your principle's inspiration and voice.
Kenney?
Quote:
"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is afraid of its people."

FDR?
Quote:
If the fires of freedom and civil liberties burn low in other lands, they must be made brighter in our own. If in other lands the press and books and literature of all kinds are censored, we must redouble our efforts here to keep them free.

Truman?
Quote:
There is no more fundamental axiom of American freedom than the familiar statement: In a free country we punish men for crimes they commit but never for the opinions they have
.
Surely, Washington??
Quote:
If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.


That didn't seem to bear fruit.

Could you then please clarify for the rest of us Foofie, just where your noble American citizenship principle comes from?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 04:07 pm
blatham wrote:


Could you then please clarify for the rest of us Foofie, just where your noble American citizenship principle comes from?


My mother. She also advised, "When in Rome do as the Romans do."

I think what you may not "get" is who I am historically. If you haven't figure it out, I like the mystery. But, I assure you, there are others who have.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 05:14 pm
I'm somewhat perplexed. I mean, this kind of mindset


Foofie wrote:
Yes, citizens are not supposed to criticize their respective governments, if the government doesn't value that criticism.


Foofie wrote:
Who says I love "freedom"? I believe freedom can also result in mob rule or total chaos.


Foofie wrote:
I think "correct regimentation" can be a good thing.


Foofie wrote:
"Don't bit the hand that feeds you," reflects the concept of gratitude.



would make you the perfect subject of any random regime you could come up with. People who believe that authority should not be criticised. People who believe that freedom is not necessarily desirable. People who believe that curtailing freedoms is a good thing. People who think that gratitude to those in power is a virtue.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:43 pm
Yes, he's a good little servant..
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 07:34 pm
Foofie wrote:
blatham wrote:


Could you then please clarify for the rest of us Foofie, just where your noble American citizenship principle comes from?


My mother. She also advised, "When in Rome do as the Romans do."

I think what you may not "get" is who I am historically. If you haven't figure it out, I like the mystery. But, I assure you, there are others who have.


I hope you are braver than this in other aspects of your life.
0 Replies
 
 

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