Education, why are teachers so underpaid?

engineer wrote:

In private schools where teachers tend to get a better group of students, they make less (more competition for the positions.) It's not that society doesn't value or respect teachers, it's just the rules of economics playing out. When teachers start quiting to work in factories for better pay, the pendulum will swing a little to restore the balance.

By better students, you mean richer, right? Because the rich six year olds are not any smarter than poor six year olds. But the difference on how many resources will be spent on their education will make a difference over time.

Market may great for commodities. People are not commodities. There are other values to consider than just supply, demand and economic performance, when it comes to public education. Not all spheres of our societies have to be economically productive and that's ok, because they serve another purpose.

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dagmaraka wrote:

engineer wrote:
In private schools where teachers tend to get a better group of students, they make less (more competition for the positions.) It's not that society doesn't value or respect teachers, it's just the rules of economics playing out. When teachers start quiting to work in factories for better pay, the pendulum will swing a little to restore the balance.

By better students, you mean richer, right? Because the rich six year olds are not any smarter than poor six year olds. But the difference on how many resources will be spent on their education will make a difference over time.

Market may great for commodities. People are not commodities. There are other values to consider than just supply, demand and economic performance, when it comes to public education. Not all spheres of our societies have to be economically productive and that's ok, because they serve another purpose.

By better students he probably means that parents are more involved and actually care about their children's education.

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McG, if you were standing here in front of me and had said that I'd probably have slapped you.

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Miller wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
German Poetry? Really?

A rather abrupt language if you ask me, not well suited for poetry.

I loved it.

-------------------------------------------

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe 1749-1832

Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind.
Er hat den Knaben wohl in dem Arm,
Er faßt ihn sicher, er hält ihn warm.

2. Mein Sohn, was birgst du so bang dein Gesicht?
Siehst Vater, du den Erlkönig nicht!
Den Erlenkönig mit Kron' und Schweif?
Mein Sohn, es ist ein Nebelstreif.

3. Du liebes Kind, komm geh' mit mir!
Gar schöne Spiele, spiel ich mit dir,
Manch bunte Blumen sind an dem Strand,
Meine Mutter hat manch gülden Gewand.

4. Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht,
Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht?
Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind,
In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind.

5. Willst feiner Knabe du mit mir geh'n?
Meine Töchter sollen dich warten schön,
Meine Töchter führen den nächtlichen Reihn
Und wiegen und tanzen und singen dich ein.

6. Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort
Erlkönigs Töchter am düsteren Ort?
Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh'es genau:
Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau.

7. Ich lieb dich, mich reizt deine schöne Gestalt,
Und bist du nicht willig, so brauch ich Gewalt!
Mein Vater, mein Vater, jetzt faßt er mich an,
Erlkönig hat mir ein Leids getan.

8. Dem Vater grauset's, er reitet geschwind,
Er hält in den Armen das ächzende Kind,
Erreicht den Hof mit Mühe und Not,
In seinen Armen das Kind war tot.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Market may great for commodities. People are not commodities. There are other values to consider than just supply, demand and economic performance, when it comes to public education. Not all spheres of our societies have to be economically productive and that's ok, because they serve another purpose.

That argument cuts both ways. Education need not be economically productive for society as a whole or for teachers.

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littlek wrote:

McG, if you were standing here in front of me and had said that I'd probably have slapped you.

Why is that? Are you somehow under the impression that all parents are involved in their children's education? That would be funny if you did.

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I don't.

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McGentrix wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
engineer wrote:
In private schools where teachers tend to get a better group of students, they make less (more competition for the positions.) It's not that society doesn't value or respect teachers, it's just the rules of economics playing out. When teachers start quiting to work in factories for better pay, the pendulum will swing a little to restore the balance.

By better students, you mean richer, right? Because the rich six year olds are not any smarter than poor six year olds. But the difference on how many resources will be spent on their education will make a difference over time.

Market may great for commodities. People are not commodities. There are other values to consider than just supply, demand and economic performance, when it comes to public education. Not all spheres of our societies have to be economically productive and that's ok, because they serve another purpose.

By better students he probably means that parents are more involved and actually care about their children's education.

Yes, McG generally got it right. Public schools often have more resources then private schools, but they take every student as well. Private schools often have signficantly more parental involvement, sometimes even making it a requirement for admission.

I agree that people are not commodities, but job positions are. That we don't like it doesn't make it untrue. It would be great if we paid janitors the same as doctors, but since there are a lot more people qualified to be janitors, they get paid less. It doesn't mean they're not equally valuable as people, just that supply and demand dicates their salaries. The second best paid position in the NFL behind quarterback is left offensive tackle. Why is that? If the defense can penetrate the offensive line there, it can come at the quarterback from his blind side, potentially crippling him with a vicious tackle. (See Thiesman, Joe). In order to play this position, you must be around 6'5", 300+ pounds, quick as a cat and have long, strong arms. Very few people even in the NFL meet those criteria, so there is heavy competition between the teams for them. They get seven figures a year, two orders of magnitude more than say the nurse who helped you in the emergency room. The market clearly drives salaries, not how much we value the service.

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engineer wrote:

......It's not that society doesn't value or respect teachers......

No? Have you ever heard the term, "Those who can't, teach"? Haven't you noticed towns and cities everywhere slashing funds for their school districts? I have.

The baby boom generation will leave a gap in the work force. Early retirement just happened, so a lump of teachers retired already. Now we'll get the boomers who are retiring in ernest - slowly it'll build up and then tail off. Let's meet back here in 5 then 10 years to check where teacher salaries are at.

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littlek wrote:

engineer wrote:
......It's not that society doesn't value or respect teachers......

No? Have you ever heard the term, "Those who can't, teach"? Haven't you noticed towns and cities everywhere slashing funds for their school districts? I have.

The baby boom generation will leave a gap in the work force. Early retirement just happened, so a lump of teachers retired already. Now we'll get the boomers who are retiring in ernest - slowly it'll build up and then tail off. Let's meet back here in 5 then 10 years to check where teacher salaries are at.

Sure, but you are supporting my assertion. As more teachers retire and there are not replacements available, salaries will rise to make the profession more attractive. To some extent, there will also be upward pressure on salaries due to changes in society. Those women who are retiring today had a lot fewer options in the 70's than college students today. I fully expect salaries to go up and I don't think that is bad. If I gave you that impression, that was not my intent.

As to your other comments, the "Those who can't, teach" is not directed at school teachers. It is typically directed at sports coaches. If someone used that particular example for a school teacher, it wouldn't make sense. Perhaps you have a better example. Around here though, teachers command a fair amount of respect.

I haven't noticed school districts cutting funds. School bond referendums routinely pass by large margins in this portion of the country. I have noticed less teachers assistants, but also a lot of new construction to handle population growth.

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I'm not supporting your point, I'm challenging it. I think teachers salaries will not go up, or will not go up much as the boomers retire.

And, I've heard the phrase I quoted to refer to all manner of teachers. I don't know what part of the country your at, but around here we haven't been so lucky with what tax payers are willing to spend on education.

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au1929 wrote:

I do not know about the rest of the country. However, in the city of NY teachers between, salary and fringes are more than adequately compensated

My husband taught in NYC for 8 years and he didn't think so.

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McG, are you saying that ALL poor parents, those that cannot afford private schools by any stretch of imagination, do not care about their children's education and do not get involved in it? Because that's what I'm hearing from you.

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dagmaraka wrote:

McG, are you saying that ALL poor parents, those that cannot afford private schools by any stretch of imagination, do not care about their children's education and do not get involved in it? Because that's what I'm hearing from you.

Then you are deaf perhaps?

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That's pretty much what I heard too, McG.

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fishin wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
Market may great for commodities. People are not commodities. There are other values to consider than just supply, demand and economic performance, when it comes to public education. Not all spheres of our societies have to be economically productive and that's ok, because they serve another purpose.

That argument cuts both ways. Education need not be economically productive for society as a whole or for teachers.

i don't get it, fishin. i think that's exactly what i'm saying.... Except that I would add that the society should 'subsidize' teachers so that enough qualified teachers remain interested. We do it for the farmers.

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McGentrix wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
McG, are you saying that ALL poor parents, those that cannot afford private schools by any stretch of imagination, do not care about their children's education and do not get involved in it? Because that's what I'm hearing from you.

Then you are deaf perhaps?

you meant blind, perhaps. No I'm not. Perhaps you didn't express yourself right. In fact, scratch the perhaps.

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littlek wrote:

That's pretty much what I heard too, McG.

It's funny, Engineer knew what I was talking about, but the two of you didn't. Odd.

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McGentrix wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
engineer wrote:
In private schools where teachers tend to get a better group of students, they make less (more competition for the positions.) It's not that society doesn't value or respect teachers, it's just the rules of economics playing out. When teachers start quiting to work in factories for better pay, the pendulum will swing a little to restore the balance.

By better students, you mean richer, right? Because the rich six year olds are not any smarter than poor six year olds. But the difference on how many resources will be spent on their education will make a difference over time.

Market may great for commodities. People are not commodities. There are other values to consider than just supply, demand and economic performance, when it comes to public education. Not all spheres of our societies have to be economically productive and that's ok, because they serve another purpose.

By better students he probably means that parents are more involved and actually care about their children's education.

Well, McG. Tell me what you meant then, oh wise and far superior one.

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McGentrix wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
McG, are you saying that ALL poor parents, those that cannot afford private schools by any stretch of imagination, do not care about their children's education and do not get involved in it? Because that's what I'm hearing from you.

Then you are deaf perhaps?

Having just come into this conversation, I don't think McG is saying ALLL publich school parents aren't involved in their children's education. That would be an ugly generality. What i am reading is that because PS students come from everywhere and have every sort of parent, there are MANY STUDENTS WITH UNINVOLVED PARENTS.

I happen to be an involved parent, but there are many children in both my daughters' classes as well as the students in my Husband's class who's parents are so uninvolved, they don't see the teacher except when they're forced to or their child won't get their quarterly report cards. Hang around for parent/teacher conferences if you ever have children, and you'll see this to be so.

I've even heard a mother tell my husband she couldn't 'be coming all out to the school because shes' trying to open a restaurant and that is her FIRST PRIORITY right now'. This is indicative of MANY PARENTS in public schools. Not all, not most even, but a great many of them.

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Education, why are teachers so underpaid?

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