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Education, why are teachers so underpaid?

 
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 12:41 pm
No investment return!!!!! Really?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 12:47 pm
well, giving money to war efforts against evil terrorists produces more voters than giving money towards education...


of course it's one of the best investments society can do to better itself. but it doesn't sell so well. it means taxes. people don't like'em here.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 12:55 pm
No. not to the people that decide how much teachers get paid, The man holding the money.

Follow the money to the source. There you will find a man behind a bureaucracy that is spending teachers money on somthing else that gives him a return.

You are on the other side of that bureaucracy that the man is hidding behind. Intill you recognize that man wich is the first step There will be no more money for teachers.

He will not give teachers money because it is the right thing to do. You have to make him.

What you get underpaid he will invest

Everything else is bull$hit.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:00 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
well, giving money to war efforts against evil terrorists produces more voters than giving money towards education...


of course it's one of the best investments society can do to better itself. but it doesn't sell so well. it means taxes. people don't like'em here.


That is one of his investments, war. It has and is giving massive returns to the very small percentage that collects taxes and uses it to their own means.

(see taxation without representation. American Revolution)

This is also where the the child care money goes. Inflation also goes to "The Man"

Who is "The Man"?

"The Man" is a symbol
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:03 pm
I getcha
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:05 pm
well, i don't like "The Man" - it makes it easier to just shrug and decide it's impossible to do anything about it. i'm not saying i would know what to do or where to even begin, just sayin that the metaphore is not too helpful ( Rolling Eyes i should just be quiet today. not a good thinking day).

Granted I don't know details about the education system in the U.S., but I do know that even the basis - the funding for schools being based on property taxes - is grossly unfair.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:10 pm
I suppose that some respects teachers are underpaid, however I think it would be a mistake to suppose that this was the only or even the most significant problem inhibiting progress in our schools system. Moreover some of the lack of public support for increased teacher's pay or tax-based funding for the school system is attributable to the actions of teacher's unions and the cadre of professional education bureaucrats who as a rule drain the system of money and degrade the performance of the system with respect to its primary goal.

Qualification as a teacher for our public schools does not require proficiency in the subjects taught, but rather in the "science" of education (whatever that is). The educational establishment has created a monopolistic closed system, designed more to protect its current practicioners than to perfect the product to which it presumably is dedicated.

In general the corelation between teacher pay, percapits student costs and measured stuudent perfiormance on standardized tests is quite poor. Indeed private and parochial schools with generally much lower costs and teacher pay, typically outperform public schools by a wide margin. The usual answer to this from public school defenders is that they alone must accept all students, hence the difference in average performance. However, the fact remains that the fascination of our public school system with various (usually ill-conceived) forms of social engineering too often trumps actions they should take to focus on learning by students and incentives for their achievement in this central area.

Finally the social pathologies of many of the relatively poor, particularly the urban poor, add both to the unattractiveness of a career in teaching in these school districts and to the low achievements of these schools themselves. Many of the resulting problems cannot be fixed by the school system, though huge resources are often wasted in the attempt. We would be better off with voucher programs to incentivize those parents, who are engaged and committed to bettering their children's lives, to take an active role and get the educational services they choose and deserve. This would better serve them and, at least provide some feedback to those who don't care to accept their responsibilities and change their behavior.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:12 pm
I'd rather they give the schools extra money than the teachers (this coming from a teacher) if it were a one-or-the-other situation.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:13 pm
I was just going to say that the vouchers would probably make up for some of the difference, and give people some real choices.... Not sure how implementable that is on national scale.

It is done nationally in Denmark. Works well, but that's a small country.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:18 pm
Littlek, You should see that movie "freedom writers". I swear that movie was made for you. It almost seems like it is about you. It is a very, very good Movie.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:19 pm
Thanks, Amigo, I'll watch it.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:20 pm
i got it. it's on the living room table. we can watch it tonight.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:29 pm
Right now we have a closed world of often interchangable educational bureaucrats, teacher's organizations, and text book publishers who decide what is good for us with respect to public education. All of these groups steadfastly oppose any attempt to objectively measure the quality of their product. Further they, with equal vigor, oppose any attempt to give parents a choice in the matter. The results they produce in the objective measures available are poor and, in most areas, getting worse.

Giving the system more money will only increase its power without improving the product. It is time to break this self-serving monopoly. Vouchers are a good start.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:29 pm
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:45 pm
au1929, Do you have a source or sources. Or does that peice come from The Man?

I'm not kidding do you have a source?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 01:56 pm
when i looked up one sentence from au's post, i found a blog... not sure if that was the original source though. probably not. there's also an article on the same blog (i guess i can't post a link to a blog here) that suggests the opposite- that teachers are not overpaid.

i don't agree with the method used (prorating teacher pay to per hour of teaching, cause it disregards any preparation teachers have to do (at least it seems so), but just wanted to post it...well, just because it's out there. ack. no brain today.

Quote:
In the beginning I was all for giving teachers pay raises till I saw a recent news clipping on WDSU. It showed that the increase would be approximately $2375 making the average school teacher pay to over $45K a year. That is more than what most professional jobs make a year. And put into consideration teachers work 9 months out of the year.

Also, statistically...A substantial body of evidence implies that teachers are not underpaid relative to other professionals. Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.
Taken for the Dept of Labor and Statistics
Professional or Technical Occupation 2003 $/hr
Technician $20.85
Avg. White Collar, ex. Sales $23.33
Avg. All Professional and Technical $28.37
Elementary School Teacher $31.74
Executive, administrator, manager $32.20
Engineer, architect, surveyor $34.34
Dentist $38.93
Lawyer $46.11
Doctor $52.91

Note that when corrected for hours worked onto a $ per hour basis, teacher salaries are higher than the average white collar or professional worker, and quite competitive with other professionals such as engineers and managers. In fact, if you were to take out private school teachers (which mix the number lower, see below) the average for public school teachers is even higher. Occupations making more than teachers such as doctors and lawyers require much more education and long-term commitment than the average elementary school teaching role.

If we are saying that Louisiana teacher pays are lower than other states, should we also not be increasing other jobs that are not as high as other states? Take into consideration that California teacher gets paid more also due to cost of living!
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 07:21 pm
The idea that we pay professionals based on how much education they have gotten is ridiculous. Yes it plays a part. Yes it should make a difference in pay within a single field (teachers with masters degrees should start at a higher pay than those without).

However, my sister, who has a B.S. in math is making more than her three siblings would all with our master's degrees, together.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 07:23 pm
she sure does have a degree in BS... sometimes, anyway.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 07:24 pm
Actually, I think we can all BS equally well.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 11:06 pm
Amigo wrote:
Littlek, You should see that movie "freedom writers". I swear that movie was made for you. It almost seems like it is about you. It is a very, very good Movie.


We just finished Freedom Writers. I think I will buy the book of writings. I think D and I both though it was trying too hard (especially H. Swank) at the start, but we both loved it by the end.
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