age of consent

Hello Agrote,

As something that may be of interest to you, I think that it is possible that paedophilia, and your condition (I can't remember the name) may be genetically caused...and from that perspective 'natural'.

If that is so...it still doesn't change the effects the actions of these people have on their victims.

You mentioned that I engaged in rhetoric...which I did, for it was not necessary for me to repeat things that have been mentioned before.

Nor am I out to 'convince you' of the wrongness of what you are doing/or want, for as I said, you will always find a way to justify what you want.

Due to the damage to the victim, this subject can never be argued as being in a similar category to homosexuals.

That said, If you haven't ever engaged in such things, then good for you.

I think the damage you speak of is overestimated, if not a complete myth. I don't think there's anything inherantly emotionally/socially damaging about a consentual sexual relationship between an adult and an adolescent. That there is anything non-physically damaging inherent in such relationships has not been established in this thread.

As for physical damage, the worst thing I am aware of so far is an increased likelihood of cancer which can be reduced with contraception.

Sexual relationships of all kinds are risky to some extent. The relationship might end badly and somone could get hurt, for example, or you might pick up or pass on a sexually transmitted disease. I have not yet seen evidence that shows that consentual relationships between adults and adolescents are particularly risky compared to other relationships.

Anyway, we are going round in circles as you've probably noticed, so it might be time to agree to disagree.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I said you would always try to justify your position...you see only what you want to see, and deny what everyone else can see...and that is why entering into any debate with you is pointless...all the worlds psychologists are wrong...all the adults in counselling because of what happened to them as kids are wrong...all the kids whose self esteem has gone through the floor from adult manipulation are wrong...everyone else is wrong, except for you, and people like you.

You want hard facts in for the damage caused to state of mind...where hard facts are impossible....even the suicide rate of molested kids you would debate.

Why then, would anyone bother to convince you that you are wrong? For you will see only what you want to see.

You're confusing bias and ignorance with simply holding a view on something. I could just as easily accuse you of always trying to justify your position that sex with adolescents is 'wrong'. I mean, you have been doing that... you've put forward the view that it's wrong, and you've tried to support (or justify) that view. There isn't actually anything wrong with that. It's called arguing. And that is all I have done.



Remind me what you can see. If I remember rightly, all that the people in this thread can see is a general deficit in decision-making skills in under-21s, an increased risk of cancer for adolescents who have sexual intercourse, and some evidence that teenage sex is correlated with emotional problems in later life.

Now nobody has yet responded to my argument about the brain-development issue, but I'll outline it again because I think that it works. It is true that the frontal lobe is not fully developed until around 21, and it is true that this affects things like decision-making and other executive processes. But despite this, we allow adolescents to make all sorts of decisions. We allow them to make decisions about their education (e.g. what university to go to), about their lifestyle (e.g. whether or not they want to eat fish for their school dinner), about their social life (e.g. whether or not they want to go to some party) etc.

Unless there is some specific reason why adolescents cannot be seen as capable of deciding whether or not they should have sex with somebody, then the same should go for sexual decisions. We should allow them to make them. If a general lack of decision-making ability is a good enough reason to stop them from makin g one kind of decision, then why not another. If they can't decide about sex, why let them decide about what they eat or what they where? What is your response to this?

As for the cancer risk, as I keep saying that can be reduced by contraception. But if it's bad enough it could also be eradicated entirely if adolescents refrained from actual penetrative sex. If penetration really does harm adolescents, then it should not happen. But that doesn't mean that sexual relationships with adolescents that do not involve penetration should not be allowed. Agreed?

As for the correlation between underage sex and emotional problems, the evidence for this that I saw in this thread was not very conclusive and clearly more work needed to be done (the article said that it was still a very complex issue). If there is a link between underage sex and emotional problems (and if it is greater than the link between adult sex and emotional problems), then while this may be due to the inherant harmfulness of adolescent sex, itm ay also be due to the taboo surrounding it.

Sex with minors is probably the biggest taboo of our time, and society's attitudes towards it are bound to give minors who engage in sex with adults severe feelings of guilt. This might be the reason, or the major reason, why adolescent sex can lead to emotional problems. In that case, if society's attude changed, sex with adolescents might become a harmless pursuit. It might not be the main reason, but you can't rule it out until you have specific evidence that it is the sex itself, or the relationship itself, which causes the harm. Understand?

So that's three things. What have I missed? What else do you see? I promise to consider every argument or piece of evidence that you put forward. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll accept that. It's happened before. I'm not as irrational as you think I am.



What do all the world's psychologists say? I keep googling for articles on ephebophilia, and a lot of them say that it is not recognised as a disorder or illness. Where are the articles that say that psychologists think it is a bad thing?



I don't believe that. Child abuse, molestation and rape are very harmful, and I have never denied that. I don't consider consentual sex with adolescents to fall under those categories. What adults do you know of who are in counselling because of consentual sexual relationships they had while they were in adolescence?



I don't agree with manipulating adolescents, just as I don't agree with manipulating adults.



That's the same as what you believe. You believe that 'people like me' are wrong to condone sex with minors, and you believe that people like you are right to be against it. I believe the opposite. What's wrong with that? It's called a difference of opinion.



No they are not. I have a degree in psychogy and I know that damage to state of mind is a testable phenomenon. Somebody actually did give me hard evidence about emotional damage being linked with underage sex (considered above), so it clearly isn't impossible. I understand it may be difficult to find, or that you may have better things to do than research this, and that's fine. But do you realise how important hard facts are? Without hard facts to back up the notion that underage sex is harmful, what reason is there to believe that it is harmful? So it's reasonable for me to want to see hard evidence for your claims.



No I wouldn't. If you showed me a study which found a link between underage sex and an increased suicide rate, then I would accept that as a fact and consider its implications.



I could so easily say the same thing about you at this moment. I'm trying my best to be logical and to consider all the evidence that I am aware of, and you're throwing it in my face and calling me a liar. When will you realise that I'm a rational person? I may be wrong in what I believe, but if I am then that is simply because I haven't seen the truth... if it is true that underage sex is harmful, then I'm just not aware of that. I haven't seen the evidence, or I haven't understood its implications. I am not only seeing what I want to see...

I've seen the evidence people have brought to me, and I've considered the possibilities that they raise, and has become clear that the evidence in this thread is consistent with both our views. Maybe underage sex really is dangerous, or maybe it is only dangerous in certain circumstances (one circumstance being the taboo surrounding it) and can actually be harmless and enjoyable for both parties. No evidence in this thread has yet proved one of us right or wrong.

I know that my beliefs are controversial, but you need to see past that and realise that I have thought about the issue carefully (and I continue to), and I have not reached my conclusions by 'only seeing what I want to see' - I'm a rational person. I've been trained to be rational... my degree was joint honours with philosophy and I'll be starting a masters in philosophy this year.

We just disagree, that is all this is. We're both intelligent, rational human beings, and we believe different things for different reasons. Now can we discuss the issue of adolescent sex, rather than the issue of whether or not I am biased and ignorant?

Hard facts on underage sex being mentally harmful...



I know what I have to say, won't make a bit of difference to you.
But, anyways,

Hard facts... No, I don't what to spend the time to search out facts that will convince you...

How about everyone that has mental baggage from sex at too young an age stand up?

I'm one.
Trust me, when I say that while I had agreed to have sex, I did not know the choices I was making. I was messed up mentally. It's taken me a long time to straighten my head out.

You seem to be mostly talking about 13-14 year old who are bleeding.
That age does not make big decisions about their education or any other life altering decisions without their parents.



17 year olds choose college.
You want little babies.

You're 20, right?
I think you are spending alot of time justifying your behavior. I don't think you are going to listen to anyone who tells you that you are wrong.
At different ages, people behave in different ways. You are behaving like a know-it-all, can't-be-reasoned-with 20 year old.

My only hope for you is that you never try to have a "relationship" with someone so young. So that when you reach the age of 30, you hopefully have enough wisdom to wince at the thoughts and arguments you've posted here and be very glad that you never acted on them.

At age 20, maybe, it's not all that bad to be fantasizing 13-year olds, but what if you carry this condition into your 30s and 40s? That bothers me.

A counselor is going to do a much better job of bracketing this as normal or abnormal; just don't rely on what you read on the Net. Every case is different.

Legitimizing sex with prepubescents/adolescents? Duh. I guess individuals that age have got a whole lot of more interesting things to do.

I'm really sorry to hear that. But it sounds like a case of paedophilia, not ephebophilia. I don't doubt that sex with prepubescent children can be emotionally damaging (even with consent), and it sounds like you are an example of that. But it doesn't necessarily mean that sex with people who have reached puberty is damaging.



Well in my country 14-year-olds have to choose which subjects to drop in school... music, geography, history, languages etc. Admittedly it's not as important as choosing which university to go to, but it's still a decision that we trust adolescents to make, and there are many other such decisions. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why decisions about sex specifically cannot be trusted to adolescents.



I am listening to you. I am open-minded... why do you assume that I am not?



I might hold different beliefs when I'm 30 (in fact, I'm bound to), but I can't see my sexual preference changing. It hasn't changed in the last 10 years, so I can't imagine it changing in the next 10. I think I'm stuck with it.

I won't carry it, it will carry me. I'm sure I'll be the same in my 30s and 40s... I don't think there's anything I can do about it. Do you think you could change your sexuality so that you were attracted to adolescents and not to adults? Not that you'd want to, obviously, but do you think you could? I doubt it... and it's the same with me, I don't think I can change.



Yeah, you're right.

You think at 20, you know how you will feel at 30?

Speaking from the age of 37, my thoughts are different than at 30 or 25 or 20. My feelings, tastes and perceptions have changed and they will continue to change at 40, 45, etc.
That's how life should be, you should always be growing.

Are you seeing a therapist or counselor? You should be talking to a professional.

You seem to be looking for validation, and not understanding. This is more about what you want than what a 12 year old wants.

A 12 year can have sex, yes. Are they ready to "fall" in love and have a strong relationship? Can they see who they'll be at 20, no.
Not anymore than you can see who you'll be at 30.
Should they even be asked to make such a choice?
By you?

Choosing to have sex, to understand it and to feel pleasure, to have sex for the right reasons, comes at a much older age.
Did you know that most women do not have an orgasm until they are older?
At 12, most childern are not aware of who they are, they are easily influenced by older people. They can be seeking approval. And thinking that sex can mean love.

Maybe this is more about the definition of sex. What do you see sex as meaning? What did you think of sex when you were 12?

I do think you should seriously consider talking to a professional.
I understand that this is how you see yourself and that you don't believe your sexual preferences are going to change.
What I'm not seeing from you is the care and consideration for what a 12 year old thinks and feels. The understanding that, yes, you can most likely find one that will think they love you and will have sex with you, but how they really are too young to be making a decision that might affect theirs lives forever. Having a baby, would do that. And they don't know what love between a man and woman is. They are childern.

I hear ya.

BUT.

How can you be so sure this is as unalterable as sexual orientation? And I doubt if this actually has to do with that.

I haven't read this
yet, but you can trust anything by Scientific American. It's about pedophilia though, but I am sure you will gain some insights.

Oh, and peruse the end carefully -- it says it CAN be treated.

But is your sexual orientation different? I see my condition as a sexual orientation, and that is why I don't think it will have gone away when I am 30.



If I have any mental health problems relating to this issue, I believe that they are there because of the taboo surrounding it and the dominant attitude that ephebophilia is an abomination. If I see a counsellor, it should be because I am depressed or anxious as a result of liking young girls in a society that sees it as disgusting - not just because I like young girls. I think you should talk to a professional philosopher of ethics and put your views under closer scrutiny. This guy has some good ideas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAhAlbsAbLM



Forget the number 12. I'm talking about the range of ages that comprise adolescence, which vary from person to person. I don't think that all 12 year olds are ready to have sex. I fell in love at 14. I've fallen in love again as an adult, and the experience was qualitatively the same. I think that adolescents are often ready for love and often do fall in love, sometimes with adult men or women.



I don't think that I would ask them... I'd wait for them to show an interest in me, so that I could be sure that we were doing something that they wanted.



Who are you to decide that?



Yes. For some women it takes decades. It doesn't mean that they do not enjoy sex, certainly not intimacy.



I am basically referring to the whole package when I say 'sex'. Intimacy, hugging, kissing, fondling, masturbation, oral stimulation, penetration etc. Although, if there is evidence that penetration is dangerous at certain ages (as it may well be), then I do not approve of it.

When I was 12, sex was just about the only thing anybody talked about, and the idea of it was a source of excitement and amusement. But I'm not sure how keen I was on doing it. I can't remember much about being 13... I'd probably started masturbating by then. By 14 I definitely desired to have sex, not only with girls my age but also with grown women such as my teacher. Somewhere between 12 and 14, I think I reached a stage where it would have been appropriate for an attractive adult female to have sex with me if she so desired. Does that answer your question?



I do care about what 12 year olds think and feel, just as I care about what anybody thinks or feels. If I were to have a relationship with an adolescent, I would not be coersive, I would be caring and gentle as I'm sure you would be with an adult partner. I don't understand why people assume that I must be an aggressive or inconsiderate person who only cares about my own gratification... you assume this based on the age of the girls I am attracted to. Why?



It's not that I don't understand that they are too young. It's that I don't believe that they are too young. You are assuming that your belief is the truth (without arguing that it is the truth), and then telling me that I don't understand the truth.

This is what I believe is the truth, and what I think you do not understand: adolescents are old enough to make informed decisions about sexual relationships (certainly as long as they have been given proper sex education and are aware of the possible dangers of disease, pregnancy, date-rape etc.).



You call them children, but there is so much that they do not have in common with prepubescent children. The term 'children' is sometimes applied to people as old as 18. Just because teenagers are called children, that does not mean they are at all like toddlers or 8 year olds.

As I mentioned before, my own personal experience suggests that adolescents do know what love between a man and a woman is. They know what it is and they often want it, and are ready for it.

Well then, we have vastly different views.


It is illegal to have sex with the underaged.
Whether you agree or not.

Thanks for the link, it's an interesting article. I don't consider myself a paedophile (and certainly not a danger to children), so I'm not sure how much of the article applies to me. If my condition has something to do with childhood experiences or repressed memories (I doubt it, but it's possible), then I suppose psychoanalysis might be of some use, but I don't know whether I can afford it.

I don't need CBT to teach me to avoid situations where I might be 'tempted'. I've been 'tempted' before and it didn't take any effort to refrain from acting out my fantasies... I'm too shy to be a sexual predator.

And as for chemical castration, first of all I'm not sure that I agree with it in principle. Maybe it's a good idea for seriously violent rapists, although maybe those should just be locked up. But depriving somebody of their sexuality seems rather inhumane to me.

When I said that I think I'm stuck with this condition for life, I guess what I meant was that I don't think I'll ever have a 'normal' sexual attraction, primarily to adults. Chemical castration might stop me being an ephebophile, but it would also stop me from being an ordinary heterosexual, so it's hardly a 'cure'.

Of course I know that it's illegal.

It was illegal to have gay sex once. It's illegal to smoke cannabis or hate religion. The law doesn't always get things right.

But in this case the law IS right And got it right!

It will remain illegal as long as there is breathe in my body.

How can I say this clearly enough. You're a sick phuque. Get help

Prove it then.

It doesn't matter how clearly you say it. What matters is that you back up your claims with evidence. I don't believe that I have a disorder for which I need 'help', because I have not seen any evidence that suggests that I do. The link that spidergal posted had some interesting facts about paedophilia, such as the possibility that paedophiles have limited control over their impulses due either to brain damage or to abnormal brain development. I can understand why a paedophile who cannot control his/her impulses and who goes around molesting children would be classed as mentally ill.

I don't see my condition as a sickness because I have no reason to believe that I am a danger to myself or others. I have plenty of control over my impulses, and find it extremely easy to refrain from illegal or harmful sexual behaviour.

Also, the objects of my attraction are at an age where they are capable of reproduction, and I think that counts for something. I'm not saying I'm in favour of teenage pregnancy, I'm just saying that nature clearly 'intends' adolescents to have sex. It can lead to reproduction, and therefore it is beneficial in evolutionary terms, just as sex between adults is. Of course, nature doesn't literally 'intend' anything; 'nature' just means the way things are. But the way things are is that adolescent sex is as natural as adult sex; both forms of sex can lead to reproduction, and there are many members of the species who desire to engage in each type of sex (including adolescents). I think that consentual sex with adolescents using contraception, and without a view to pregnancy, should be seen as no more abhorrent than consentual and contraceptive sex between adults.

While there's enough good information on pedophilia across the Net, the same cannot be said about ephebophilia. Do you know of any sources, like some journal paper or magazine article in a pub like Scientific American, where we could find enough info to gain more insights into this condition (and possibly form an opinion as a consequence)? I tried Google; all it brings up is a link to Wikipedia (and I am not crazy about it) and some other crappy sites that I would never like to go to read about a psychological condition.

Yeah, I'm having difficulty finding much stuff about it. Another name for it is 'hebephilia', so try searching for that too. A lot of articles deal with paedophilia and ephebophilia as the same thing, either wrongly calling it all paedophilia or rightly calling it all 'attraction to minors'. MAA (minor-attracted adult) is a term that covers ephebophilia.

I'll post some links here if I find some good ones. I found a study about age of onset of paedophilia, hebephilia and ordinary sexuality. I've forgotten where it was, but I'll try and find it again. It concluded that the age of onset is the same for hebephilia and normal sexuality, and different paedophilia, suggesting that the etiology (origin) of hebephilia had more in common with normal sexuality than with paedophilia.

Sorry to jump in without reading ALL of the previous comments. I'd just like to make some points about the original questions and how it was phrased.

Right, I'm 17, I lost my virginity about 3/4 months ago and I'm only NOW starting to regret how I did it.

I let my boyfriend basically push me into it. He says he regrets it now, but he left me plenty of opportunity to resist or say no. I didn't though; I knew I wasn't really comfortable with it, but my self-image is pretty bad, so I thought that was just me. I've gained some confidence from a new job and having to deal with certain hiccups in my relationship, and now I can safely say we rushed into it.

I didn't stop it because I was worried he'd think I was a waste of time or frigid. Now I know I just seemed easy and it defeated the object of 'the chase' which is the best part of a relationship, just getting started. I immediately destroyed a portion of time where we could still have been 'new' to eachother. I regret that now. A 17 year old, over a year over the age of consent and I still wasn't brave enough to stand up for myself or recognise my own feelings.

I don't think there should be so much condemnation of 14/15 year olds having sex if it's a 'serious' relationship, but I don't think the age of consent should be lowered at all.

There's also the side that says naturally humans become 'ready' for sex around 12/13, or so their body says, but their mind is certainly not prepared for it in almost all cases. A sudden onrush of hormones can also effect judgement, plus peer pressure; it's just not worth having sex that early on. I thought about it for years and still wasn't prepared.