How do we know that Christians are Delusional?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Dat's true; you either love people or you don't. It's like saying I love homosexuals, but don't want them to have the same moral/legal rights as everybody else based on "my" beliefs. .

No, that is not how most Christians see it - at least most of the ones I know. They can love someone even if they do things that are wrong. We all have tendencies. Some people overeat. It is how they are rigged - how they deal with things. It is a behavior that can be changed but it is so innate it is difficult to. Does it mean they give up and say "I just can't stop eating, it's just how I am made"? Actually some do. But it is considered wrong (gluttony) and even though some of us struggle with it (me for instance) does not mean my fellow believers hate me. Fat people are treated poorly all the time. They are made to feel unlovely and are many times left out and passed over. And yet - they are to be loved. What they are doing is just not considered a sin by most. But actually any type of inability to control yourself can become sin. Self-control is a gift of the Spirit and everyone has it. We just have to practice it.

Now if homosexuals are born the way they are - which many believe to be true, myself included, then just because they feel like having homosexual relationships does not mean they are suppose to. They can practice self-control and abstain. Just because a heterosexual feels like having sex with everything in sight does not mean he/she should. Self-control.

Smoking used to be acceptable everywhere. People were addicted. It is almost impossible to stop. But because it was accepted everywhere there was no question. For heaven's sake Andy Griffith smoked. But now, you can ask anyone who smokes how they feel others think of them and I bet they feel looked down upon. I bet they are treated pretty ugly by many - because the mores have changed. Smoking is no longer acceptable everywhere. And it is bad for you.

My Dad is a smoker. I love him. My best friend growing up is a homosexual - I love him. He and his friends crack me up. Now - if things get started toward talking about religion and marriage of homosexuals...I get hooted and pushed and made to feel like an ass. That is okay. Some of his friends openly disdain me and I understand that but Chuck knows that is my right...and he knows I love him. His dad is a pastor and we were in the same church for many years...he is not unfamiliar with the reasons why. I myself am an overeater (lost the weight though-and constantly have to control myself) my husband loves me. As a Christian it is my duty to love othes as I love myself. I should not look down or cast a stone...because I myself am full of problems and imperfections. So my job - though in some cases it is hard, is to do my best to love others in spite of what I don't like about them - whether it be something such as homosexuality - or even something as mundane such as they annoy the heck out of me. Is it hard? YES. I think most would say loving others that have issues they don't agree with or differences in opinions is difficult. But my faith in God is what gives me the ability to love even when I don't want to.

Okay...I know - I can't do anything short and to the point - another failing of mine...but ALL of that being said. The question is - what mores(moral attitude) and values do you follow? Societal mores change with time. As long as it is the norm then people don't really buck it...once someone steps outside and it becomes acceptable the mores change and then it becomes the norm. At one point chubby people were seen as beautiful (oh that that were today) but now not so much. Smokers were once everywhere. Not today. These things always change. Sometimes for the better...sometimes not so much. If it feels good do it cannot apply all the time. For the protection of society there must be laws - musts and must nots. We are human - given an inch many will take a mile. Guidelines are a necessity.

One of the issues with allowing homosexuals to marry is the breakdown of the family. The fact is - we don't know how it will affect society. There are those who believe that it is inevitable and is happening regardless. Maybe so...but that does not mean we throw up our hands and give in - not to me anyway. We made wearing seat belts a law. Why? To protect those who cannot protect themselves. Should it be a law? Not in my opinion. But it is there...to protect...and I understand that - and I comply because it is in my best interest and I am charged by the Bible to obey the laws of government. To me - a good reason for not allowing homosexual marriage is to protect the identity of marriage. And the argument can and has been made that if we sanction homosexuality that having children will become harder and that life as we know it will not be able to be sustained. Do I know that to be true? No. Can I say it would be the end of the world if homosexuals are allowed to marry? Maybe maybe not. We as the human race will find ways to survive the best we can - or become extinct or smaller in number as the consequences of our actions (pollution, overeating, smoking, etc...) become apparent. The fact is - we never really know what the outcome of our actions are...not until many years later. Most people just want to preserve what they know works. Not to mention uphold what their belief to be right is.

Now I know the forward thinkers think I am a lunatic and an antique and what I have said is a bunch of garbage. I accept this. I understand that my views seem to be unkind and exemptive. But that is not my goal at all. I know what I believe and though it does seem like hocus pocus to some ( I see where that can happen) being a Christian is in fact something that is the very fabric of my being. I cannot seem to change what I believe. Even through times of severe doubt and even criticism and unkindness from other professed believers I managed to wade my way back to my stance as a Christian. If someone believes something to be true - they don't sit on it and keep it to themselves they share it. So that is what I do - I share my understanding and hope that others will hear and believe as well. If not - it does not mean I criticize or disdain them. I still love them. Not always very well...but it is something I try to do to the best of my ability. I do not feel I should be defensive about my beliefs...they are what they are. And I can't change you - sure - I would love it if others believe with me - who doesn't feel that sense of companionship when others come to understand what you are saying? Not to mention it is a wonderful thing believing in someone greater than yourself. Knowing that my life is valuable and blessed by the God of the universe? Priceless. But I am not going to beat others over the head - or spit on them because they do not believe the same thing. Sometimes people are mean to me because of my public stand for what I believe...and it does hurt. I try to understand the reasons behind it. The fact is I know it will get worse before it gets better. It has been this way throughout history. Christians are either thriving or hiding. They are either in earnest or using their power erroneously. Human nature. It cannot seem to help exploit the good things some times. I hope that as time goes by people who are earnest in their beliefs will show it by their actions as well as their words.

a very exhausting explanation for how I see things...take it as you will...I am sorry it was so stinking long.

So God has a purposes for everything then. Thanks for the scripture quote hankarin.

Can you come up with the scripture that says what our purpose is?

Bartikus wrote:

So God has a purposes for everything then. Thanks for the scripture quote hankarin.

Can you come up with the scripture that says what our purpose is?

Matthew 7:12 "All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.

Matthew 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Here Jesus says he is not God. If the Bible says Jesus is God then do we have a contradiction here?

19:18
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19:19
Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

19:20
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Did Jesus practice communism?

In verse 17 Jesus said the only one that is good is God. Then he tells the young man to be PERFECT he has to give all his wealth to the poor. Since when is anyone perfect?

19:22
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

19:23
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ecclesiastes 5:18
Behold [that] which I have seen: [it is] good and comely [for one] to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it [is] his portion.

5:19
Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this [is] the gift of God.

Romans 3:27
Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

suggestion for phpbb hacks:

[quote="hankarinWith all these contradictions one can see why there are so many different sects, beliefs and Gods in the Christians religion. One would think that if God is so wise he could write a book all could understand without interpretation.

Mad replies: He DID; it's the HEART that twists & ignores what it REALLY says!

Quote:

Mad replies: He DID; it's the HEART that twists & ignores what it REALLY says!

No he did not. There are to many contradictions in the Bible to know what is really said. If the message is simple than the Bible should be simple. One should not have to plow through tons of gobbledygook to find a simple massage.

Which bring up the fact that many Christians, in an effort to flee from the gobbledygook, pick a few passages from the Bible and say this is the essential message and ignore everything else. So what's the essential message of the Bible? Whatever your cult or sect leader tells you; or whatever you personally choose to believe.

xingu wrote:

Quote:

Mad replies: He DID; it's the HEART that twists & ignores what it REALLY says!

No he did not. There are to many contradictions in the Bible to know what is really said. If the message is simple than the Bible should be simple. One should not have to plow through tons of gobbledygook to find a simple massage.

Which bring up the fact that many Christians, in an effort to flee from the gobbledygook, pick a few passages from the Bible and say this is the essential message and ignore everything else. So what's the essential message of the Bible? Whatever your cult or sect leader tells you; or whatever you personally choose to believe.

If you were to honestly distill the bible to it's basic message, I would have to ask: How hard is it to understand "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself"?

And that's not what God of the Bible practices. God does not give a good example for us to live by.

neologist wrote:

xingu wrote:

Quote:

Mad replies: He DID; it's the HEART that twists & ignores what it REALLY says!

No he did not. There are to many contradictions in the Bible to know what is really said. If the message is simple than the Bible should be simple. One should not have to plow through tons of gobbledygook to find a simple massage.

Which bring up the fact that many Christians, in an effort to flee from the gobbledygook, pick a few passages from the Bible and say this is the essential message and ignore everything else. So what's the essential message of the Bible? Whatever your cult or sect leader tells you; or whatever you personally choose to believe.

If you were to honestly distill the bible to it's basic message, I would have to ask: How hard is it to understand "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself"?

But that's not what Paul says.

And that's not what God of the Bible practices. God does not give a good example for us to live by.

If there existed a god for the bible god, he'd burn in hell for eternity for his sins.

If you were to honestly distill the bible to it's basic message, I would have to ask: How hard is it to understand "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself"?

hankarin wrote:

Bartikus wrote:

So God has a purpose for everything then. Thanks for the scripture quote hankarin.

Can you come up with the scripture that says what our purpose is?

Matthew 7:12 "All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.

Here Jesus says he is not God. If the Bible says Jesus is God then do we have a contradiction here?

No contradiction. Millions of Christians realize that Jesus is not God.

Did Jesus practice communism?

Jeses led and preached a non-materialistic life style.

In verse 17 Jesus said the only one that is good is God. Then he tells the young man to be PERFECT he has to give all his wealth to the poor. Since when is anyone perfect?

Perfect in the sense of doing what we are currently capable of doing.

Quote:

Ecclesiastes 5:18
Behold [that] which I have seen: [it is] good and comely [for one] to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it [is] his portion.

5:19
Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this [is] the gift of God.

Jesus ate, drank and attended meals and weddings as the above implies is proper to do.

Back to Paul

Quote:

Romans 3:27
Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Quote:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But James doesn't buy Paul's (expletive deleted).

Quote:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

With all these contradictions one can see why there are so many different sects, beliefs and Gods in the Christians religion. One would think that if God is so wise he could write a book all could understand without interpretation.