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How do we know that Christians are Delusional?

 
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:27 am
rosborne979 wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
However, these 2 guys seem to suggest that everyone who has some kind of spiritual view is irrational because some religious people are irrational.

I didn't don't think they are saying that at all. The video specifically targets the aspects of beliefs which are in direct conflict with fundamental human knowledge of nature and physics (magical events like prayer and resurrection and angels and flying horses and such).

Obviously the video refers to a specific notion of God, not the broadest concept which could be almost anything.

Except that they don't say that a common Christian conception of God is imaginary, they simply say that God is imaginary. Also, in the video they explicitly say that "every other religion is delusion". (Does that include Buddhism which doesn't even talk about God?) Perhaps they say that God is imaginary in order to make their message simple and have more impact. Nevertheless, it gives the impression that all conceptions of God are imaginary, and all spiritual notions are delusion. This is a sweeping generalization that only a die-hard atheist would agree with.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:32 am
Setanta wrote:
They are still delusional by this definition, but society as it is presently constituted cannot reasonably attempt to extirpate the delusion. See again Ashers cogent remark about how the religiously delusional personally identify with their belief set. To attack what they believe is seen as attacking them personally.

The delusion is obviously intractible. And I guess we agree that the approach the video takes to revealing the delusion is not likely to work (hard to use rational arguments on people who are already irrational).

Then I guess the video is just merely entertainment for those of us who are not consumed by the delusion already.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:34 am
IFeelFree wrote:
Except that they don't say that a common Christian conception of God is imaginary, they simply say that God is imaginary.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Title of the Video and not on it's basic argument and meaning.
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:03 am
I don't understand, Setanta. Why would it be dangerous not to exempt articles of religious faith? I imagine it might cause many people to feel hostile toward psychiatry, but I don't consider that reason enough to distort the medical definition of "delusion".
[btw-- I don't mean to suggest that this is your reason.]
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:07 am
Joe,

I should certainly disabuse others of their "delusions" when the adversely affect me. And since I am a member of society, I may have a responsibility at the macro level to voice my specific concerns (like Sam Harris).
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IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:09 am
rosborne979 wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
Except that they don't say that a common Christian conception of God is imaginary, they simply say that God is imaginary.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Title of the Video and not on it's basic argument and meaning.

No, I'm examining what they actually say. Did you watch the video? They say that God is imaginary, Christianity is a delusion, and all other religions are delusional. Those are pretty sweeping generalities.
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:16 am
Idea I may have been thinking about "delusion" in the wrong way. I suppose the term is concerned with beliefs that are unconventional rather than those that are simply illogical.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 12:06 pm
IFeelFree wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
Except that they don't say that a common Christian conception of God is imaginary, they simply say that God is imaginary.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Title of the Video and not on it's basic argument and meaning.

No, I'm examining what they actually say. Did you watch the video? They say that God is imaginary, Christianity is a delusion, and all other religions are delusional. Those are pretty sweeping generalities.

It's pretty obvious they mean the Christian God. And they are only using Mormons, Christians and Muslims in their examples. More specifically, they are only using the magical events described in these religions as the basis for their argument for delusional thinking.

The "God is Imaginary" video is an entirely different video (which I didn't post in this thread). I suppose they are related, but the argument presented in each video is different.

If I remember correctly the "God is Imaginary" video uses the irrational notion of Prayer as the demonstrator of delusion. However, if the God (or Spriritual essence) you prefer to believe in, doesn't respond to Prayer, then the video is not directed at your particular god.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 12:43 pm
echi wrote:
Idea I may have been thinking about "delusion" in the wrong way. I suppose the term is concerned with beliefs that are unconventional rather than those that are simply illogical.

Somewhere in one of the videos they give the definition of delusion they are working with. I think it's this one:
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
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IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 01:11 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
It's pretty obvious they mean the Christian God... ...However, if the God (or Spriritual essence) you prefer to believe in, doesn't respond to Prayer, then the video is not directed at your particular god.

In spite of my criticism, there is some truth in what you are saying: It is time for people to give up a childish, ego-based relationship to God. God is not an external entity who doles out rewards or punishments, listens to prayers, demands praise, etc. This is an immature level of spirituality. Its the kind of thing a child would believe. God is the eternal, unmanifested consciousness that all of us can glimpse within ourselves. God is the intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form. God, as consciousness, has been preparing forms for millions of years so that it can express itself through them. God is formless. Form and formless inter-penetrate. The unmanifested flows into this dimension as awareness, inner Presence. How does it do that? Through the human form that becomes conscious and thus fulfills its destiny. The human form was created for this higher purpose.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 01:37 pm
echi wrote:
[link]
Quote:
In the most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith).
emphasis added

Why is religious faith exempted from this definition? Is it just more sugar coating?


Interesting that the authors of the DSMMD seem to have referenced the same thing I did.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:11 pm
fresco wrote:
Joe,

I should certainly disabuse others of their "delusions" when the adversely affect me. And since I am a member of society, I may have a responsibility at the macro level to voice my specific concerns (like Sam Harris).

How can you tell if someone is delusional?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:16 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Setanta wrote:
They are still delusional by this definition, but society as it is presently constituted cannot reasonably attempt to extirpate the delusion. See again Ashers cogent remark about how the religiously delusional personally identify with their belief set. To attack what they believe is seen as attacking them personally.

The delusion is obviously intractible. And I guess we agree that the approach the video takes to revealing the delusion is not likely to work (hard to use rational arguments on people who are already irrational).

Then I guess the video is just merely entertainment for those of us who are not consumed by the delusion already.


You got a great circular argument going there, ros. Keep it up.

'those folks are crazy, that's why they won't listen to us.'

'how do you know they are crazy?'

'because they won't listen to us.'
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:21 pm
real life wrote:
You got a great circular argument going there, ros. Keep it up.

'those folks are crazy, that's why they won't listen to us.'

'how do you know they are crazy?'

'because they won't listen to us.'

Your reading comprehension skills are conveniently leaving you.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:31 pm
IFeelFree wrote:
In spite of my criticism, there is some truth in what you are saying: It is time for people to give up a childish, ego-based relationship to God. God is not an external entity who doles out rewards or punishments, listens to prayers, demands praise, etc. This is an immature level of spirituality. Its the kind of thing a child would believe. God is the eternal, unmanifested consciousness that all of us can glimpse within ourselves. God is the intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form. God, as consciousness, has been preparing forms for millions of years so that it can express itself through them. God is formless. Form and formless inter-penetrate. The unmanifested flows into this dimension as awareness, inner Presence. How does it do that? Through the human form that becomes conscious and thus fulfills its destiny. The human form was created for this higher purpose.

You seem to have a deistic view of god. That's fine.

The concept of God you carry is not the one the video's are focused on. The video's are focused on the easy target; the Fairy Tale God.

I'm not entirely certain that Deism is safe from similar scrutiny (though for the moment I will grant us the benefit of the doubt), but it's going to be much harder to make that argument because Deism doesn't tend to promote any beliefs which are in direct conflict with nature and physics and reason. So it's going to be much harder to demonstrate delusion.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:36 pm
echi wrote:
Quote:
In the most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith).
emphasis added

Why is religious faith exempted from this definition? Is it just more sugar coating?

Yup, more sugar coating. It's everywhere. It's ingrained in our culture to the point where we could almost be defined as delusional ourselves for not immediately recognizing the sugar-coating for what it is.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:53 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
In spite of my criticism, blah, blah, blah, woof, woof . . .


You seem to have a deistic view of god. That's fine.

The concept of God you carry is not the one the video's are focused on. The video's are focused on the easy target; the Fairy Tale God.

I'm not entirely certain that Deism is safe from similar scrutiny (though for the moment I will grant us the benefit of the doubt), but it's going to be much harder to make that argument because Deism doesn't tend to promote any beliefs which are in direct conflict with nature and physics and reason. So it's going to be much harder to demonstrate delusion.


Although i consider deism as silly as organized religion, and consider IFF to be one of the most sophistical of the proponents of a vague, toucy-feely, happy horseshit spiritualism--i'd say that deism gets a pass. There may be delusion involved, but beyong confusing one's personal and idiosyncratic interpretation of the experience of meditation or some physically induced experience which is treated as a spiritual epiphany, i don't see that such people are promoting outrageous claims which threaten to impinge on the rest of us.

Those who can truly and easily be defined as delusional are those who promote a rigid scriptural canon which entails miraculous occurrences and the putative manipulation of reality beyond the laws of physics as they are know or understood to operate. Even that ought to be a matter of indifference to us, were such things not codified in an organized religion which purports to be inerrant, and holds all divergent views to be at least heterodox, if not actually heretical. Then i believe that the skeptic, or the more ecumenical of the religiously convinced are justified in interfering in what can be seen as the coercive programs of the religiously fanatical.

Otherwise, though, the mere thought that there are millions and perhaps billions of delusional people on the planet does not particularly alarm me, nor do i consider that i am justified in attempting to interfere with them. After all, we all of us (or at least most of us) look in to the mirror of a morning and convince ourselves that we are handsome or beautiful, and intelligent, witty and capable--so delusion is hardly a stranger to the human experience.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 04:29 pm
IFeelFree wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
It's pretty obvious they mean the Christian God... ...However, if the God (or Spriritual essence) you prefer to believe in, doesn't respond to Prayer, then the video is not directed at your particular god.

In spite of my criticism, there is some truth in what you are saying: It is time for people to give up a childish, ego-based relationship to God. God is not an external entity who doles out rewards or punishments, listens to prayers, demands praise, etc. This is an immature level of spirituality. Its the kind of thing a child would believe.
IFF wrote:
God is the eternal, unmanifested consciousness that all of us can glimpse within ourselves. God is the intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form. God, as consciousness, has been preparing forms for millions of years so that it can express itself through them. God is formless. Form and formless inter-penetrate. The unmanifested flows into this dimension as awareness, inner Presence. How does it do that? Through the human form that becomes conscious and thus fulfills its destiny. The human form was created for this higher purpose.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:23 pm
Joe,

I was careful to put "delusions" in inverted commas ! I suppose we need a redefinition in terms of "relative sociopathy". This relativity is well discussed in anthropology where an individual whom we might label "schizophrenic" might be elevated to the status of "medicine man" in other cultures. The problem now is that local solutions have given way to global communications such that "society" can no longer be thought of in parochial terms. As Harris points out, the stakes for conflicting "belief systems" have been raised or amplified via modern technology. It may no longer be be appropriate to be a "moderate" believer when some aspect of a belief system like "the afterlife" gives succour to fanatics intent on destroying "this life". In a way this is a problem similar to that of whether we legislate against "soft drugs" because for some they can lead to "hard drugs". All "freedoms" tend to come with a social price tag for which the only practical control is "education about potential dangers".

In this respect I believe Western democracies have the duty to to ensure that "secular education" takes precedence for all children. In the UK we have the ludicrous situation of state aided religious schools. Any politician canvassing my vote gets an appropriate "tongue lashing" on that subject !
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IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:38 pm
echi wrote:
IFF wrote:
God is the eternal, unmanifested consciousness that all of us can glimpse within ourselves. God is the intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form. God, as consciousness, has been preparing forms for millions of years so that it can express itself through them. God is formless. Form and formless inter-penetrate. The unmanifested flows into this dimension as awareness, inner Presence. How does it do that? Through the human form that becomes conscious and thus fulfills its destiny. The human form was created for this higher purpose.

To be honest, I prefer to avoid the use of the word "God" because of all of the cultural and religious connotations the word brings. It is not necessary to use the word God in talking about spirituality. (Buddhism is a good example.) However, on a spirituality & religion forum where a lot of people are talking about God, it is impossible to avoid the word. Also, when I address another person, I try to talk in the language they are familiar with. If they use the word God, I will too.

That said, what do I believe in? I believe in the radical transformation of human consciousness. In Hinduism and Buddhism this is called enlightenment or liberation. In Christianity it is called salvation. What I am implying is that the historical originators of those teachings (Buddha, Krishna, Christ) actually had valuable insights. However, they had the difficulty of trying to communicate their insights to an unenlightened and largely uneducated populace. To varying degrees, but particularly so in the case of Christianity, those teachings were so altered and misunderstood over the years, that what is being practiced today is but a pale reflection of the original teachings. All sorts of wrong ideas have crept in. That's the problem with using the word God. It brings in all of the misunderstandings that have become part of modern religion.

What do I mean when I use the word God? I mean absolute eternal being or consciousness. It is impersonal. It is not a personal God who is your imaginary companion. Since your fundamental identity is consciousness, you are God, literally. God is found in you as you. However, God, or the state of pure consciousness, has to be realized through the radical transformation of consciousness. This is the an evolutionary process that is the culmination of the evolution of biological life on this, and probably other, planets. Consciousness is the intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form. Consciousness has been preparing from for millions of years so that it can express itself through those forms. The unmanifested consciousness flows into this world as awareness or inner Presence. It does this through the human form that becomes conscious and thus fulfills its destiny. The human form was created for this higher purpose.

Consciousness incarnates into the dimension of form. When it does so, it enters a dreamlike state. Intelligence remains, but consciousness becomes unconscious of itself. It loses itself in form. It becomes identified with form. This is traditionally known as ignorance or ego. At this stage of evolution of the universe, consciousness is in a dreamlike state. Glimpses of awakening come at the moment of death. Then begins the next incarnation. When the lion tears apart the body of the zebra, the consciousness incarnated into the zebra body detaches itself from the dissolving form and for a brief moment awakens to its essential immortal nature as consciousness and then falls back into sleep and reincarnates as another form. The human ego represents the final stage of the identification of consciousness with form. Through the human form, consciousness is able to know itself. This reaches its highest expression when the individual attains the state of enlightenment. That is the ultimate purpose of human existence and of the evolution of the universe.
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